forged notes

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catalac08

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If payment in cash is accepted for sale of a small boat turned out to be forged notes what would be the legal ownership of the goods and would this be different if the item sold was different e.g. a car? Just wondered.
Comments about use of cheques/Bank Transfers/BACS or Bankers Drafts not helpful in this context but thanks.
 
Well it's effectivly theft isn't it. You're not paying for the goods (I say you but whoever). Therefore the goods remain the property of the previous owner. Even if you didn't know your notes were counterfeit you would still lose the boat once the Police got involved.

The previous owner would then get the boat back and you would be left high and dry (excuse the pun) with no cash, no boat and probably a jail sentance :D
 
There is quite a difference between bouncing a cheque and paying in forged money. Forgery has always been considered a serious crime as it undermines the basic fabric of commerce. Plod would look much harder for such a purchaser than a rubber cheque passer(if at all, vis the thread on this subject a while back)
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Boats or cars, no difference, still goods.
 
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DownWest said:
There is quite a difference between bouncing a cheque and paying in forged money.
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Paying with a dud cheque is considered a civil matter and the victim can only sue to get his money/goods back. If the buyer can be shown to have deliberately defrauded several people the police may then regard it as fraud and pursue it. Trying to pay for goods with forged banknotes is a criminal offence even in isolation.
 
But in practice probably not so clear cut...........

If I bought something with forged notes (& obviously not spotted at the time) I would probably deny doing so :D Then it becomes a "he said - she said" situation..........which may not end up with a clear cut result in the vendors favour.

I am not so sure that the goods could be immediately reclaimed just on an unproven allegation..............otherwise the unscrupulous would do that :rolleyes:


Although I am guessing that the biggest hurdle Mr Forged Notes would have is explaining / proving where he got the cash sum from - if it "magically appeared" in his hands then probably forged, but if he could show a matching bank cash withdrawal or other transaction (car sale) then he can easily argue his cash was genuine (and the Vendor is trying it on) or at least he was an unwitting party..........of course none of these supporting cash transactions have to genuinely match the notes used. The nature of cash :rolleyes:
 
Can I suggest the best solution.

The purchaser turns up with cash. You both go along to your bank and pay it in. You only complete a bill of sale when your bank has accepted the notes and given you a deposit slip.

This proceeduer was insisted on by the vendor when I last bought a second hand car.
 
davidej said:
You only complete a bill of sale when your bank has accepted the notes and given you a deposit slip.
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Given that banks can bounce cheques up to 2 weeks after deposit and that they can (and often do) accept Drafts/Building society cheques and then decide days after the event that they are fraudulent, does anyone know if they have a similar "get out clause" with regard to dud notes?

mjcp
 
mjcp said:
Given that banks can bounce cheques up to 2 weeks after deposit and that they can (and often do) accept Drafts/Building society cheques and then decide days after the event that they are fraudulent, does anyone know if they have a similar "get out clause" with regard to dud notes?

mjcp
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When I've paid cash into a bank they hav just put it into the cash drawer. They'd have a job saying where it came from if a later inspection showed it to be moody.
 
EASLOOP said:
Don't want to be pedantic (SNIP)
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But you succeeded.


Banks are pretty good at spotting counterfeits - it's part of their job & they do it all day long. I had a £20 note picked out of a cash deposit a year or so ago. I couldn't identify who had passed it off on us so we had to carry the loss. In fairness, it was probably given in good faith - but it was still quite annoying!
 
Counterfeit Notes

As Davidej rightly says .. Take it down to the bank pay it into your account and then give them a receipt ..

I excepted €8500 in notes for a dingy .. Walked away with 17 Notes .. Each worth some £300 each .. They were handed to me in a sealed bank envelope
The guy was genuine and I had to wait for the bank to check them as they had never seen a €500 Note .. :eek: At that point neither had I but they did look nice ..

At the end of the day its your property and you lay the laws down on how the sale is handled .. If they are not happy then something is usually wrong ..
 
If a few in the bundle, the 'didn't know' defence might work. If they were all dud, be much more difficult to convince plod. I remember a woman in Portugal who was pulled for a dud note. She was actually able to convince them that it came from a cash machine. One of her problems was that the bank didn't want to admit that might be true. But did later. Also previous character etc. in her favour.
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As an aside, over 80% of dollar notes have traces of cocain on them. Wonder what the % is for pounds?
Woman in the US had her life savings confiscated at an airport because of the traces.Proceeds of crime. As it was the customs, no defence.
 
on €500 notes

I once got given one by the Commission as part of my expenses for a job I'd done for them.

It took me about 3 weeks to change it (in France and Benelux), everyone refused it point blank. In the end I went to a bank - and they were very sniffy about it, as well.
 
I used to work in a bank and have seen my fair share of counterfeit notes. I have never seen once yet that isn't easily spotted. Mixed in with proper money they stand out like a sore thumb.

If they were to be accepted by the bank I cannot imagine how they could then come back to you. As others have said, once passed over the counter they become part of the banks stock of cash and no longer traceable.
 
catalac08 said:
If payment in cash is accepted for sale of a small boat turned out to be forged notes what would be the legal ownership of the goods and would this be different if the item sold was different e.g. a car? Just wondered.
.
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If you sell something against a cheque and that cheque bounces you have still sold the item unless you have a contract with a retention of title clause in it. You have to chase the buyer for a bad debt rather than simply take back what you sold. I don't know whether its the same if the cash is forged since forgery is criminal and the law tries not to let anyone benefit from a crime, but I wouldnt be surprised if it was.
 
Just sold the clinker dinghy recently. The buyer brought notes. I had asked at the building society if they would check the notes with him present.
In the end the notes were pretty well worn, some had writing on, and all had obviously been through the banking system several times. I counted them and inspected them as I did.
I was perfectly happy with them and when I did bank them there was no problem.
 
90's Working in Russia, payed cash, I estimate about 30% of the US$ notes I was paid in were counterfeit. The really good quality fakes were Korean - only way to tell was the hologram/water mark thing. Chinese fakes - paper was wrong but looked good. Russian fakes - out of a colour Xerox!
Never had a single problem moving them. The really bad fakes (ink running!) - I waited until I was in the US - never a squeak.

Just got some fake UK£ from a legit Bureaux (why anyone would invest time & money faking the worlds fastest crashing currency defeats me) - 1st taxi driver spotted it immediately.
 
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