Force 5 or more - To be a skipper - Sounds reasonable

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To align weather conditions to the Day Skipper certificate is nothing more than farcical. Rather like not being able to drive a car when it is raining.



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But a far as I know, when you learn to fly a plane you get your pilots license and then have to undergo further training and flight hours to be able to fly after sunset. Surely it's a similar idea to that? Why not make it the next qualification step up from Day Skipper? I appreciate that it would be very hard to guarantee such conditions, but surely in the long run it would make for better and safer sailors. I know who I'd rather be stuck in a squall with...... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
But isn't that the whole point of the RYA scheme? Day skipper is for day time only, hopping from pub to pub...

If you want a bit of paper to tell you where you can go (I don't) then YMOcean is the one for all weather, go anywhere sailing.

And even then only because it necessitates an actual ocean passage, rather than up and down the channel a few times 'till the miles clock over!

In any case, if you're going to sea based on a piece of paper rather than some idea of what is really going on then you are a duffer, and better drowned.
 
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In any case, if you're going to sea based on a piece of paper rather than some idea of what is really going on then you are a duffer, and better drowned.

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Couldn't agree more, experience is the only way to be properly 'qualified' for these situations. I'm by no means suggesting that RYA certificates should be the only license to get out on the water, we're nannied enough as it is, but i think it may be an idea to have a supplementary Day Skipper course so that people can choose to get some experience of rough weather sailing with a guiding and reassuring hand - a confidence builder of sorts. The YMOcean is preferable but from my limited knowledge a lot of people see quite a jump to that from DS so stop there, but you can still get caught in some horrendous conditions 'hopping from pub to pub' (as you can on land in my area! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif).
 
Troll or not, yes it is desirable to have some experience of bad weather as part of the learning curve.

I have always sailed alone until recently, so would not go out if I did not feel comfy with combination of weather/boat etc.

After a break of a few years I felt rusty, so did a DS week course, chose to go in early March to get some bad weather, and succeeded! All you need is backup, and whether a friend with more experience or a course matters not, you can get that experience safely, and helps you.

Agree, difficult to stipulate as part of obligatory training, and I don't go for the big stick anyway, but like the RYA levels, all helps you to enjoy it more.
 
Well... I passed that one OK then... done my day skipper 18mths ago and for the whole 5 days we had F7-8, not venturing more than a couple of miles offshore but gave us plenty of time for the nav and handling skills.

I might have done this, but the main lesson we were taught was not to sail in this unless its necessary - you are likely to just be putting either the yacht or the crew at risk.

I don't think that you would be able to enforce this as part of the qualification - the experience would do anyone good, but not to enforce it. I suppose that would be the skipper's decision - he/she should know their capabilities, and if outside of these should take the decision not to sail, in my opinion.
 
I took the YM in 1974 when it was run by the Board of Trade and was a shore-based exam with no requirement for sea time at all. (I failed on the morse & semaphore and re-took it under the RYA years later).

Be glad that some sea time is needed now. To add more hoops and cost to the current exam would mean far fewer taking it and make YMs more of an elite. That might make those who hold the ticket feel superior but I doubt it would add to the general safety level.

IMHO what is needed is not to withhold the YM but for those who pass to realise that having the certificate doesn't mean they know it all.
 
The corner stone of skippering anything (from a canoe to the space shuttle) is decision making and in particular knowing when to say no. Becoming a professional skipper (whether it be a boat, ship, aircraft) requires experience, ie working up through the ranks. Before the RYA, people learnt to sail by spending time with those more experienced over an extended period of time. A week long Day Skipper course is, I believe a misnomer. You cannot teach someone to skipper a yacht in a week. You can teach them how to sail and perhaps skipper a dinghy/ small day boat, but not to skipper a 33' yacht.

If there is a demand for heavy weather sailing courses (and I think they would be invaluable), then it should be just that, a stand alone course not an add on to an already overly short course.
 
It's hard to imagine anyone managing to clock up the qualifying mileage for YM without meeting F5+. I can't see that it makes much difference whether one learns to cope with fresh or strong conditions before or after the little test. The idea of testing is surely to check that a skipper has basic knowledge appropriate to the qualification and applies it. If s/he can do this, the rest will slot into place on the long curve of post-test experience.
 
Sailing a yacht is not like driving a car or piloting an aircraft. There is another vital ingredient which needs consideration - seamanship. If you try and limit qualifications to weather conditions then it will have the effect that people who have met the minimum qualifications of 6 hours in a F5 believe they are now fully qualified to sail in that sort of weather. Seamanship develops over time and is based on good basic instruction from the start. For example my own vessel is 12 tons and carries her canvas past F6 before I have to think of reefing, whereas a 25 footer may need reefing much earlier. Also, whether you sail hard on the wind or off the wind has implications. What happens when all the forecasts indicate 3 or 4 and yet you get caught out in a gale as you are approaching land? If the skipper has been taught his or her licence/ticket only qualifies them up to F5 then there is going to be a confidence issue here. If you are going to look into licencing in this manner you will need to police it somehow. Have a look at how the CAA police pilots licences to get an idea of the size of the problem.

I think the most important thing that needs to be taught is good seamanship. The ability to make the right decision based on the current conditions, state of sea, state of crew, type of boat etc etc.
 
Re: Force 5 or more

"Thames Estuary in March and April can usually be relied on for F5 and above!"

I'll second that. I haven't had the first reef out since we went back in the water on April 1st!

Regards, Mudhook
 
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Like many things today, people want to learn faster


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Brendan
I couldn't agree more and the fastest way to get someone to learn is to let them "experience" it for themselves.

Let them leave harbour with a F3 wind and a BBC forecast of F3-4 for a 50nm trip with no bolt holes - then when the wind hits F7-8, they start to learn very quickly.

On this forum I have said that I support basic training and certification because I genuinely believe that there is some merit in placing "experienced" sailors in contact with "in-experienced" ones and following a laid down curriculum - but I have also said that "tickets" don't always mean that the holder is any better than anyone else, only that the ticket holder attained a set level "on-the-day".

As a RYA instructor I would never agree to any form of ticket/licence that was wind based!

How would we ever achieve parity - I'm based on the Medway so a NE F6 is nothing like the same thing at Ramsgate or Cromer or even the Solent -impossible.

IMHO
95% of sailors know their limitations and adapt accordingly.
4% are reckless and make decisions they later regret.
1% are down right stupid and nothing will ever change that.
Peter.
 
This proposition sounds like a wind up to me. It's a bit like insisting that part of the driving test should be done in the rain!

As both an ex dayskipper instructor and an ex motorcycle instructor I have to say that all that the level of knowledge taught for a day skipper certificate or a driving licence gives is a good hope of survival while you continue to learn.

Passing either marks the begining of an apprenticeship, nothing more.
 
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IMHO
95% of sailors know their limitations and adapt accordingly.
4% are reckless and make decisions they later regret.
1% are down right stupid and nothing will ever change that.
Peter.

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Not only sailors. This holds true for many other things.

And it's the 1% that get the rest a bad name.
 
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It's hard to imagine anyone managing to clock up the qualifying mileage for YM without meeting F5+.

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I think you are correct apart from FastTrack courses, and this is where the RYA needs to amend the training requirements a small amount to restore credibility to the whole scheme.

The RYA should introduce two extra requirements for trainees on a fast track YM course:

1 - Prior to submitting a candidate for final examination the principal of the school should have high confidence in the all-around skippering abilities of the student. In order to demonstrate this confidence students should, in crews of 3, make an unsupervised offshore passage of no less than 60 miles.

2 - All students should spend 3 days learning sailing skills in a small open decked sailboat of less than 17ft. After the training phase students should sail this vessel single handed in winds of no less than 10 knots and be assessed over a 1 hour period.
 
It appears that people don't want to 'work up the ranks' as it were. Gone are the days of starting in dinghies and going on, year by year, to day boat then small cruisers then a 'big' yacht of 30'

In a world of instant gratification, where image matters more than contant and a first boat is likely to be over 30', is it a surprise that there is a market for 'fast track' courses?
 
Oh for heavens sakes. I hope this is a troll.

A well motivated person is likely to achieve RYA coastal skipper within a couple of years of starting to sail. It is quite possible that during this time that they will not have sailed at night, in fog, with a tired or inexperienced crew, or a whole host of features that increase the skipper's workload. Does that mean that there should be a "skippering boat in the fog" endorsement, or a "skippering a boat with a tired and p*ss*d off crew" endorsement? I think not.

The mistake here is to think that any kind of certificate or course "qualifies" you to be a skipper. Sure, just like passing a driving test, it makes certain you have demonstrated the necessary basic skills for the task at hand. However, it doesn't necessarily equip you with the experience to get your crew and boat through those times when it all goes belly up.

I would be reluctant to put to sea with someone who had just done a fast track course "with a greater than force 5 endorsement", but not much experience. Besides, someone with very little experience still has very little experience regardless of the weather, tides, etc. and is probably at as much risk of making a dodgy decision in a force 3 as a force 6.

Andy
 
For me the whole fun of sailing is to get away from rules and regulations. Lets keep it simple. For over 30 years I have aimed to sail in less than F4 but have gained significant experience of small boats at sea in F8 plus.

RYA qualifications are there to encourage people to take responsibility and to learn - the sea time is the minimum they dare ask and near enough none existant when compared to commercial deck officer requirements. If you don't believe me, ask the RYA about giving Ocean Yachtmaster certificates for North Sea crossings (I was at an instructors conference when James Stevens defended it). At the very least I feel the RYA Ocean qualification should match the OCC's 1000 miles between ports.
 
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