For whom the clock is running.

[BurnitBlue]

As I understand it the boat must be cleared out from EU for 24 hours every 18 month. Advice is to enter a non EU country for proof. Apparantly this does not apply to boats that can prove they were in the EU on 31-12-2020.

I hope so, and I hope someone can confirm this, because I am in the process of making various alternate plans depending on that third wave on massive infections that threatens to restrict travel for maybe the whole of 2021. Otherwise, if Covid does restrict travel of boat and or skipper for 2021 then the 18 month will time out on June 30th 2022 which will mean a priority voyage of several hundred miles almost immediatly after launch for that summers cruising season. Consider, also that most boats will have been laid up for two years.

I believe this 18 month hassle will only apply to boats that were in UK or out of EU lsewhere on that date. Thanks for your comments.

Edit. Forgot to also ask about the impact of this Transit log thing fo boats laid up ashore during 2021 for Covid reasons.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

No blinking idea whats happening .

 

[[2574]]

I’m not sure what rules you are referring to but the Schengen rules for non EU persons are regrettably much more draconian. The maximum duration in any Schengen country is 90 days in 180 days. Thus, by way of example, if present on 1/1/21 then the individual must be absent from 1st April until 30th June and then could be present 1st July to 30th September then absent again - and so on.

 

[sailaboutvic]

If you have prove that the boat is
A vat paid somewhen in the EU
B the boat was in the EU before the end of 2020 .
The boat is EU vat stated and don't have to leave ever 18 month .
If not as I understand it within 18 months it has to leave the EU ,
I dont think there any rule how long it has to be out .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I’m not sure what rules you are referring to but the Schengen rules for non EU persons are regrettably much more draconian. The maximum duration in any Schengen country is 90 days in 180 days. Thus, by way of example, if present on 1/1/21 then the individual must be absent from 1st April until 30th June and then could be present 1st July to 30th September then absent again - and so on.

Unless they were there legally on the 31 12 2020. Then they can stay in that country under the withdrawal agreement.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

If you have prove that the boat is
A vat paid somewhen in the EU
B the boat was in the EU before the end of 2020 .
The boat is EU vat stated and don't have to leave ever 18 month .
If not as I understand it within 18 months it has to leave the EU ,
I dont think there any rule how long it has to be out .

Day trips to Turkey ,Tunisia, Albania ,Montenegro , for a day is not difficult.? there are other places.

 

[Tony Cross]

As I understand it the boat must be cleared out from EU for 24 hours every 18 month. Advice is to enter a non EU country for proof. Apparantly this does not apply to boats that can prove they were in the EU on 31-12-2020.

I don't believe that the TI law says anywhere how long you have to be out of EU waters. In theory you could exit EU waters and turn around and come straight back. The issue then becomes one of proving you really did leave. I wouldn't want to risk an AIS track so as you say, the best advice is to spend one night in a marina in a non-EU country and use the receipt as proof of having left.

In addition there is I believe a discretionary additional 6 months that can be added to the boat's 18 month stay. The criteria for adding this extra time varies from country to country, it's my understanding that Greece will add it pretty much for the asking - though having a good reason always helps.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Thanks for the replies. I asked a specific question to keep it simple. Perhaps I should explain further. I have two sailboats, one in Greece with the other in Sweden. Both were present in the EU on 31-12-2020. One alternate plan for my 2021 saiing is rapidly rising to number one because of the uncertainty caused by the 3rd wave driven by an increasing number of mutant variations in the EU.

Some countries will demand a "jab visa"while other countries are dealing with violent protests against such "visas". It is total chaos in the EU even on the vaccine supply level. J&J vaccine and the Astra Zenica are on restricted activity depending on the member state. Chinese vaccines have been downgraded tp 50% efficacy. Phizer is now under investigation so who, what and when will get a valid "jab passport" is somewhat uncertain. Total chaos.

This may mean that I will launch the Swedish boat to sail to the Caribbean. However back to my question. It will be totaly irrelavent how close Turkey is to Greece if I will be swanning around the Caribbean in June 2022 with my Moody still ashore in Greece. So I thank sailaboutvic for his take which aligns with mine, that the Moody is safe to stay in Greece without the need to move as noted by Tony Cross. I would just like to be sure.

 

[Tony Cross]

Thanks for the replies. I asked a specific question to keep it simple. Perhaps I should explain further. I have two sailboats, one in Greece with the other in Sweden. Both were present in the EU on 31-12-2020. One alternate plan for my 2021 saiing is rapidly rising to number one because of the uncertainty caused by the 3rd wave driven by an increasing number of mutant variations in the EU.

Some countries will demand a "jab visa"while other countries are dealing with violent protests against such "visas". It is total chaos in the EU even on the vaccine supply level. J&J vaccine and the Astra Zenica are on restricted activity depending on the member state. Chinese vaccines have been downgraded tp 50% efficacy. Phizer is now under investigation so who, what and when will get a valid "jab passport" is somewhat uncertain. Total chaos.

This may mean that I will launch the Swedish boat to sail to the Caribbean. However back to my question. It will be totaly irrelavent how close Turkey is to Greece if I will be swanning around the Caribbean in June 2022 with my Moody still ashore in Greece. So I thank sailaboutvic for his take which aligns with mine, that the Moody is safe to stay in Greece without the need to move as noted by Tony Cross. I would just like to be sure.

If your boat is ashore in Greece then it's 'out of use'. It's my understanding that this stops the clock on the 18 month transit log. You won't need to worry until you put her back in the water again.

BTW. I keep reading about the 'shambles' in the EU's vaccine rollout. Here on Crete at least it's all going well. We get notified automatically with our two vaccine dates (which we can change online). I had my first (Pfizer) dose on 6th April and SWMBO had her first (AZ) on 12th April. I'm 69 and SWMBO is 68. That's not bad going I think. The platform for the 60-65 age group has already opened here too.

 

[Laser310]

BTW. I keep reading about the 'shambles' in the EU's vaccine rollout. Here on Crete at least it's all going well. We get notified automatically with our two vaccine dates (which we can change online). I had my first (Pfizer) dose on 6th April and SWMBO had her first (AZ) on 12th April. I'm 69 and SWMBO is 68. That's not bad going I think. The platform for the 60-65 age group has already opened here too.

kind of off topic.., but because you raised it...

I probably wouldn't use the word "shambles".., but some countries that are thought to be doing a "good" job of vaccinating are open for vaccinating all ages, so they are a bit behind that standard.

 

[BurnitBlue]

If your boat is ashore in Greece then it's 'out of use'. It's my understanding that this stops the clock on the 18 month transit log. You won't need to worry until you put her back in the water again.

BTW. I keep reading about the 'shambles' in the EU's vaccine rollout. Here on Crete at least it's all going well. We get notified automatically with our two vaccine dates (which we can change online). I had my first (Pfizer) dose on 6th April and SWMBO had her first (AZ) on 12th April. I'm 69 and SWMBO is 68. That's not bad going I think. The platform for the 60-65 age group has already opened here too.

Thank you very much Tony that was the specific answer I was hoping for. Regarding my comment about the shambles with the vaccine rollout, i agree it is going OK in many places. It was not intended as a complaint just an observation that was bringing my alternate plan to the top of the list. Sorry for the thread drift but my question generated strange answers so I had to expand the why and wherefore. However it is basically chaos with regard to making plans for the coming cruising season and understandebly so. Everyone is fighting an invisible enemy and not all Governments are at the same place and use the same method to combat it. In the past, such things were blamed on swamp fog etc so we all went down the same path. A little knowledge, and all that.

Anyway I was looking at the big picture in EU (and the world) and realising that the situation was getting worse not better and is making plans for the boat impossible to make. From that aspect I think the thread is still on topic.

There are three ways to act in an uncerain world. (1) Make alternate plans with dates when they get to the top of the list dependent on nearbye situation (2) Sell the boat. (3) Hide under the bed and wait it out while patting oneself on the back for having such good patience, All good options.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

If your boat is ashore in Greece then it's 'out of use'. It's my understanding that this stops the clock on the 18 month transit log. You won't need to worry until you put her back in the water again.

BTW. I keep reading about the 'shambles' in the EU's vaccine rollout. Here on Crete at least it's all going well. We get notified automatically with our two vaccine dates (which we can change online). I had my first (Pfizer) dose on 6th April and SWMBO had her first (AZ) on 12th April. I'm 69 and SWMBO is 68. That's not bad going I think. The platform for the 60-65 age group has already opened here too.

Do you not have to deposit your boat papersincluding its Bill of Sale with the Port Police? Before the clock is stopped.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have to tell you this. Sweden is new to this lockdown game so last week the supermarkets were told a limit of so many shoppers to each shop. I have just returned from my local supermarket where they have split the floor space into two seperate shops called the blue shop and the yellow shop. 500 customers in each. There is a list at the entrance for which items are in which shop. The shop is divided into two by plywood fences, most floor to ceiling but not all. A customer must come out of one shop do a quick 360 around the barrier to finish the shopping in the other "shop". Amazing it may actually work by reminding the absent minded Swede to take care.

Of course the virus has no choice but to enter either shop in the lungs of a positive customer. No sepreate shopping cart for the virus nor any instructions to stay on one side of the barrier.

That was the point I decided to move the Swedish boat option to the top of the list.

 

[nortada]

Anyway I was looking at the big picture in EU (and the world) and realising that the situation was getting worse not better and is making plans for the boat impossible to make. From that aspect I think the thread is still on topic.

Why do you think things are getting worse not better

Unlike this time last year, whether or not we like them, we now know the current implications of Brexit.

This time last year there was no likelihood of a vaccine in the near future. Now we have a plethora of vaccines coming on line and hopefully the world will begin to re-open for travel.

The options you suggest have always been there.

I think the real decision is to decide what you want, where you want it and go for it.

I enjoyed my time in the eastern Med but where Greece is concerned, the life of a sailor is never straight forward. That and the current political situation, I am rather glad I am well out of it.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Why do you think things are getting worse not better

Unlike this time last year, whether or not we like them, we now know the current implications of Brexit.

This time there was no likelihood of a vaccine in the near future. Now we have a plethora of vaccines coming on line and hopefully the world will begin to re-open for travel.

The options you suggest have always been there.

I think the real decision is to decide what you want, where you want it and go for it.

I enjoyed my time in the eastern Med but where Greece is concerned, the life of a sailor is never straight forward. That and the current political situation, I am rather glad I am well out of it.

That's a good question. Brexit is basically not the problem. Although my question was about the 18 month VAT rule which is a 3rd country rule in place before Brexit, in many ways Covid is the prime problem.

The rule that a boat must be moved out of the EU after 18 month for a day was hardly a problem when an airplane flight would put the skipper alongside his boat in a day or two. Imagine today being in lockdown when the skipper needed to be aboard for some rule or other. Part of the problem is the vaccine passport, pcr tests, plp locator stuff etc. actually being allowed to get to his boat. Once there his troubles are not over he has to clear out sail a few hundred miles and hope he will be allowed to clear into his selected country to clear the VAT thing. Not to mention if he is allowed to clear out then clear back in to his home marina. This is Covid not Brexit. And I know it is getting worse simply because this third wave is nowhere near topping out before the next varient hits.

All I see from Sweden with Germany, Poland, France as near neighbours is unmitigated chaos with decisions made challenged changed by the day. ICU beds are full while the curve has gone exponential.

On a bright note, I have been fully vaccinated 2 jabs for a week now, and I have a good seaboat sitting in my garden just raring to go. Maybe I am looking for an excuse to choose this boat over the Moody. I really, really really cubed and squared times two to the power of 99 want to use this boat. But she sits free in my garden whereas the Moody cost a few thousand a year in Greece. Where, it seems they actually do not want me for effectively more than 90 days a year. Ahhhh.

 

[Tony Cross]

Do you not have to deposit your boat papersincluding its Bill of Sale with the Port Police? Before the clock is stopped.

I'm no authority on this, but I don't think that's necessary for a boat that is on the hard. It's clearly 'out of use'.

I believe depositing papers does become a major issue if you want to declare a boat that is in the water 'out of use'.

@Chris_Robb of this parish will know chapter and verse on this.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think Tony right regarding handing in your papers to the PP , three years out of Greece and I lost touch with the rules as they don't interest me much now .
This year is going to be more interesting then last , we left the marina mid April last when only part of Italy was open to region but we manged a good season without any problems to do with covid , sailing in and out 5 EU countries.
So far we have managed a 10 day sail to another part of the EU and return back to Sicily, other then filling in some forms on the net there was nothing else involved regarding Covid or Brexit.
We now in orange zone which mean we not allowed to leave our region unless within the rules, although it doesn't stop us sailing and leaving Italy , the problem is where too.
Most country want at the very less a PCR 72 hours before arriving lucky for us their much cheaper here then back in the UK .
So for the next two weeks or until there a suitable weather window, we will study every country rules and seenwhich one suit us best to be our first stop .
It may mean a few hundred miles sail , but hey thats would we here to do .

 

[BurnitBlue]

It seems that sailaboutvic has also aswered Nortada about 2021 being probably worse than 2020. I am glad I asked the question about the ticking clock though. In particular from the replies, the 18 month vAT rule is not the problem it first appeared because a boat hauled out is "out of use" and stops the clock.

But something very strange happened last night. I had been playing with the option of using the IFboat stored in my garden to get to the Caribbean, but not in any detail. I did not make a detailed plan because I was distracted by what would happen to my Moody in Greece for more than 18 month. When I read the replies that it was not a problem I focused on the enevitable list to get the IFboat launched and off to the Caribbean.

After an hour or two getting into the nitty gritty details I realised it was the daftist idea I had ever had. The boat would get there OK but I know myself. I would be sitting on my uncomfotable IFboat at anchor thinking about the Moody sitting idle in expensive Greece with her new diesel engine, new heads, new Rocna, standing headroom, cold frig, four solar panels my Aries windvane, and a nice shady bimini to know that I would be on the next flight back to to Greece. Square one re-visited.

So thanks for the replies even though it may seem I wasted your time it may help others. I will get to Greece ASAP and work around Covid and the 90 day limitation to get the Moody to the Caribbean. Thanks.

 

[grumpygit]

Why do you think things are getting worse not better

Unlike this time last year, whether or not we like them, we now know the current implications of Brexit.

This time last year there was no likelihood of a vaccine in the near future. Now we have a plethora of vaccines coming on line and hopefully the world will begin to re-open for travel.

The options you suggest have always been there.

I think the real decision is to decide what you want, where you want it and go for it.

I enjoyed my time in the eastern Med but where Greece is concerned, the life of a sailor is never straight forward. That and the current political situation, I am rather glad I am well out of it.

I am going to stick my neck out for some probable abuse and say at the moment things aren't getting any worse but I have a feeling for the future things are not going to get much better, just different and the rose coloured spectacles need to be returned to the box,
The rhetoric was that the vaccines were to be the holy grail to freedom which actually isn't turning out to be correct, the restrictions on people such as it the UK for instance is still IMHO massively draconian with civil liberties withdrawn and far from normal life as we knew it.
Lockdowns are going to be inevitable in the future and this will happen at a drop of a hat because now they know they can and the laws are in place to do so.
At the moment, even if you are fully vaccinated this will not help you in travelling, you will still need all the PCR tests, PLF's and what other acronyms that are used, plus you are still going to need to quarantine at least at one end of the trip.
We have all believed in what we have been told and adhered to it either by faith in those who are better equipped and informed, from the imminent fear of catching the virus or just being a dutiful citizen but in truth it appears we are getting led by the nose by imbeciles or first class bulls***ers , and with this said, some guy with a head like a haystack springs to mind.
The EU is fairing no better, mostly because of mismanagement, politics and incompetency. I'm stuck here in Greece which in one respect isn't as rabid over the vaccine choice(s) as most of the northern states are, but with no hope at the moment of getting the vaccine because I don't have an AMKA (Social Security) number. I can't get one because my local office has Covid and is not operating and no other office is taking on the work. Hopefully there may be temporary AMKA numbers being issued electronically so we will wait and see. I personally don't want to travel without being vaccinated regardless of what hoops I can jump through to make it possible.

Apologies for the hijack but I didn't cast the first stone

 

[nortada]

I am going to stick my neck out for some probable abuse and say at the moment things aren't getting any worse but I have a feeling for the future things are not going to get much better, just different and the rose coloured spectacles need to be returned to the box,
The rhetoric was that the vaccines were to be the holy grail to freedom which actually isn't turning out to be correct, the restrictions on people such as it the UK for instance is still IMHO massively draconian with civil liberties withdrawn and far from normal life as we knew it.
Lockdowns are going to be inevitable in the future and this will happen at a drop of a hat because now they know they can and the laws are in place to do so.
At the moment, even if you are fully vaccinated this will not help you in travelling, you will still need all the PCR tests, PLF's and what other acronyms that are used, plus you are still going to need to quarantine at least at one end of the trip.
We have all believed in what we have been told and adhered to it either by faith in those who are better equipped and informed, from the imminent fear of catching the virus or just being a dutiful citizen but in truth it appears we are getting led by the nose by imbeciles or first class bulls***ers , and with this said, some guy with a head like a haystack springs to mind.
The EU is fairing no better, mostly because of mismanagement, politics and incompetency. I'm stuck here in Greece which in one respect isn't as rabid over the vaccine choice(s) as most of the northern states are, but with no hope at the moment of getting the vaccine because I don't have an AMKA (Social Security) number. I can't get one because my local office has Covid and is not operating and no other office is taking on the work. Hopefully there may be temporary AMKA numbers being issued electronically so we will wait and see. I personally don't want to travel without being vaccinated regardless of what hoops I can jump through to make it possible.

Apologies for the hijack but I didn't cast the first stone

Interesting post. Don’t do abuse in here. Currently, I think where you are is what you see and some (us) are having it a lot easier than others.

Problems travelling to and from the UK appear to be stoking up so with the advent of the end of lockdown coupled with the arrival of the holiday season, I look forward to some interesting (beneficial) changes in this area.