Flying a masthead spinnaker on a fractional rig yacht?

[Saabgirl]

Hi,
I am a joint owner of a Dehler 33 Classic, bought for cruising (my idea)and club racing (husbands idea) on the East Coast.

The racing crew (husband included) are experienced off-shore racers of a J-133 and they like to push the boat hard!

We have a masthead spinnaker which is a real handful to control and a fractional spinnaker and fractional asymmetrical which are much easier to fly.

I would like to know your opinions on flying masthead spinnakers on fractional rig boats?

 

[Saabgirl]

Hello Angus,

Thanks for your reply.

My view exactly.

The trouble is the crew are all a bit competative, they like flying kites by the seat-of-their-pants and since the masthead spinnaker is there, they used it. The J-133 they race off-shore is obviously suited for that type of sail.

The effect the masthead has on the boat is very disconcerting for the novice racer, but experienced sailer!

I will carry on with my research into the most appropriate spinnakers for the boat and hopefully find enough evidence to persaude them of the errors of their ways, if not I will have to pull-rank! The masthead may have to dis-appear!

I would like to know if there are any breezes in which it would be suitable to use? I suspect not becuase of the excessive downward force it exerts from the top of the mast and the effect htis has on the boats motion.

If we want to replace the masthead spinnaker, what would be our choice of replacements, we already have a fractional spinnaker and fractional Assy, as mentioned before, sizes/types still to be ascertained, but we need a third, if they rip?

 

[rudolph_hart]

Does the Owners' Handbook mention the use of a masthead spinnaker or asymmetric? I ask only because the handbook for my Dehler 35 says that both can be used (but probably not simultaneously ). The hadbook describes how to deploy the spinnaker pole as a bowsprit (about a metre), by passing it through a large ring on the pushpit and clipping the inboard end to a sidedeck fitting.

However, my D35 is a 7/8th rig, whereas IIRC, the JV-designed 33 has a 9/10, so I would think that the fractional:masthead area increase wouldn't be as great on the D33 as it is on the D35.

I have only a masthead asymmetric 'cruising chute', and deploy it on the spinnaker pole 'bowsprit'. Once set, it's easy enough to trim, but it can be a bit of a handful hoisting & dowsing 2-handed even with a snuffer (it's 13.6 x 7.6m), so it's only used on longer trips in the right conditions with plenty of searoom.

 

[RobbieW]

I expect that the masthead option is there to allow more sail area to be set. What you actually set will depend on i) your pocket ii) conditions iii) crew strength. One boat I raced had 5 spinnakers from a very light, huge masthead job to a heavy, fractional 'chicken' chute.

 

[Clive]

If to have had thoughts is fitting a mast head spinnaker to my fractional rigger X-302. I have even got a 90SqM spinnaker for it (usual size 60SqM) however I have still to fit a mast head exit box ( the rigger at Chi marina was unablet to do it for Health and Safety reasons !!!!!)

I had assumed that I could only us it in light winds, say upto 10knts and on a dead run a little more say 12/13knts.

It would be interesting what the insurance company would say it the mast broke whilst flying the mast head kite.

 

[smth448]

I assume you are racing in a handicap fleet. If you are using IRC then you are rated by the maximum size of spinnaker, ie your masthead one. It may be worth putting in a trial certificate with the RORC to see how much the rating will come down if you no longer use the masthead kite.
Under IRC you are limited to carrying 3 spinnakers without a rating penalty. You seem to have the correct range of sails at the moment.
I assume the masthead one is for light airs, the fractional symmetrical sail is an all purpose sail and the assy will be for reaching and heavier airs. If you stop using the masthead one you should really replace it with a light weather fractional sail, funds permitting.

 

[flaming]

Hello Angus,

Thanks for your reply.

My view exactly.

The trouble is the crew are all a bit competative, they like flying kites by the seat-of-their-pants and since the masthead spinnaker is there, they used it. The J-133 they race off-shore is obviously suited for that type of sail.

The effect the masthead has on the boat is very disconcerting for the novice racer, but experienced sailer!

I will carry on with my research into the most appropriate spinnakers for the boat and hopefully find enough evidence to persaude them of the errors of their ways, if not I will have to pull-rank! The masthead may have to dis-appear!

I would like to know if there are any breezes in which it would be suitable to use? I suspect not becuase of the excessive downward force it exerts from the top of the mast and the effect htis has on the boats motion.

If we want to replace the masthead spinnaker, what would be our choice of replacements, we already have a fractional spinnaker and fractional Assy, as mentioned before, sizes/types still to be ascertained, but we need a third, if they rip?

Ok - assuming you're racing IRC....

You get 3 kites "free" on rating - rating for the area of the maximum. If you have more than 3 you start having to take a penalty. Note, this doesn't mean you can't own more, just you can only carry a max of 3 without taking a hit. So a typical boat racing inshore would have a Masthead runner, a masthead light airs A-sail and and fractional reacher / bullet proof chicken kite.

Simply put, it's not the kite area or the hoist point that is causing you issues, it's the wind strength. That hull has a bit of a reputation for being a little keen on swapping ends downwind. So you're undoubtably faster in light / moderate areas with the masthead whilst the boat is upright, but will start losing time every time the boat falls over.

So to argue for the removal of the masthead you need to do some maths on what rating change you would get (test cert) vs how much time you lose in the light. The concensus under IRC is that kite area is cheap rating wise, so most boats go for the biggest they can fit to the rig - that given I don't think your sums will add up.... I think you'll be in the position we were a couple of years back - lightning quick upwind then just wave goodbye to everything downwind until it was blowing 20+ and they all changed to their smaller kites.

I'm afraid I don't buy the downward pressure argument - every kite I've ever come across lifts the bows, and if the masthead fitting is standard then the mast is built for it... (Rigger won't let us go masthead - so we went fat instead!)

So 2 choices - practice, practice, practice until holding the masthead in stronger winds is second nature - or ditch the masthead and accept that there's a big hole in your performance downwind in less than 20kts.

 

[Saabgirl]

Hi,

Thanks for all your views.

We do race under IRC, rating currently at 0.984, but this has not changed for a number of years, even though the previous owner bought a new set of Hyde Sails in 2010, Main, No.2 & No.4 Genoa and Fractional Spinnaker.

We also have the old racing set of Main, No.2 and No.3 Genoa, plus the Masthead Spinny and Fractional Assy. Plus Dacron main and two Genoa's for cruising. We have a spinny pole that can be used as a bow-sprit.

I will have to check the Owners Manual on sail specifications.

We are going to get the boat re-measured before next seasons racing as she has not been re-rated for over five years, all the previous ratings were self measure, she has not been professionally measured and the new Hyde main is quite short of the boom tape, the consensus is that the rating will drop, especially if we lose the pole as a bow-sprit.

The reason I am questioning the use of the Masthead spinny is that the boat perfomed ok, when it was under control, but when we used the Hyde fractional spinny on the next haul, the boat flew along!

Does the difference in the performance of the two sails not tell us which is the best one to use? The crew were suitably suprised and impressed with the fractional spinnys performance.

I think the bank can stretch to a new spinny, particularly if it filled a gap and meant better downwind performance. Once all the sails are cleaned and measured we will have a better idea of what we have and what we need.

I will definately talk to our broker as my husband would not like to have to pay for major rig work becuase of flying the masthead, better to be safe than sorry. I think I am far too cautiuos ofr this racing lark.

As far as we know the rig is the original standard one for the 33 Classic.

Flaming-I am an accountant so I dont think the maths will be difficault, but so was the husband, so it may take some clever spreadsheets to convince him.

Anyway, thanks again for all your view, any more welcome and plenty to think about and keep my husband entertained over the winter
as he plans the changes for his new toy!

 

[flaming]

Hi,
We are going to get the boat re-measured before next seasons racing as she has not been re-rated for over five years,

5 years! I predict at least a 10 point drop, probably more. We dropped 4 points on a sail re-measure of 2 year old sails. And 20 points isn't out of the question if you lose the bowsprit.

The reason I am questioning the use of the Masthead spinny is that the boat perfomed ok, when it was under control, but when we used the Hyde fractional spinny on the next haul, the boat flew along!

Does the difference in the performance of the two sails not tell us which is the best one to use? The crew were suitably suprised and impressed with the fractional spinnys performance.

Not necessarily - it could tell you which one is the newer, better shaped sail, it could tell you which one the trimmer was better at trimming. it doesn't tell you that a masthead is slower than a fractional, especially when they're different ages and different sailmakers.

Flaming-I am an accountant so I dont think the maths will be difficault, but so was the husband, so it may take some clever spreadsheets to convince him.

I didn't mean you wouldn't be able to do the maths - but that the Maths would point to the masthead being the way to go.

 

[GrumpyOldGit]

I think you should ONLY ever use the masthead kite, for a very good reason. ................. That way you can let me have the fractional one for my boat, a slightly more mature Dehler 34 nova which will keep me well in class for racing and save me spending a small fortune on a replacement for the old Quantum.
Thanks in advance
GOG

bring back TBT

 

[dt4134]

There's nothing extreme about having a masthead kite on a fractional boat. There's enough boats around that have that and don't have especial problems. And I've not noticed them carrying an obvious rating penalty for it, in fact I'd say the opposite, so I don't think you'll gain enough on your rating losing the masthead spinnaker to compensate for the loss of speed. However you should have had it reduce over the last five years anyway, if only because of the age allowance.

It sounds to me like the issue is determining what conditions your crew & helm can fly the kite in. Once you've established it's OK below a certain wind speed, start from that point and practice till you can push up the limit. The sailmaker will probably be able to tell you what wind strength the spinnaker itself is good for, so that's your ultimate target.

Without wishing to teach anyone how to suck eggs, it always helps to have someone with quick reactions on the kicker to improve control downwind, especially if you've got a boat that is prone to broaching. If they're quick enough to release or ease they can often bring the kicker back on within seconds when the boat is back under control.

 

[Saabgirl]

Hi,
Thanks again for all your comments.

We do not have the original manual, so need to find one, would be very useful.

Flaming - I know you were not question my mathematical ability, we will punch the numbers into a trial cert on RORC and see what comes out, could be interesting! Once all the sails are measured and checked we will know what is good, bad, etc... you may be right the masthead spinny may just be old.

Grumpy Old Git - We nearly bought 34, lovely boat and then nearly bought a DB36, but eventually we were seduced by the current 33. We used to sail out of Brightlingsea on our Prospect 28, something about Van De Stadt/Dehler we like! My sister and brother-in-law live and sail there still on a Westerly Pentland. But now we have moved to Burnham to play with the 'big boys' on the Crouch. Might see you around the Colne next summer.

Thanks again

Will keep you posted on the results of the sail measuring and re-rating. and any theories I can come up with, the crew might even listen.