Flares France...

[poter]

Apologies if this has been answered somewhere else.

What flares/types do you need for France for offshore sailing, also is there any more stringent requirements elsewhere in the Med?

 

[rib]

portugal.got stopped and first thing thay checked was flares then everything else 3wks ago

 

[rib]

oops thats not the med no wonder it has taken me ages

 

[Tranona]

Depends on where your boat is registered. If it is in France then French rules apply - you need to carry the designated flares and they need to be in date. However, if you have a DSC and an EPIRB you do not need to carry flares. If your boat is registered in the UK you do not need to carry flares.

However, some officials may make an issue of not having flares, as seems to be happening in Portugal from time to time, so you may consider it sensible to carry an in date Offshore pack.

 

[markwilde]

I had heard (probably through these very pages) that Portugal requires 2 or 4 white flares (not sure of the number) as part of their list. My offshore pack does not contain these, and nor do French chandleries although I've only tried two places so far.

I'm not loosing any sleep over it but will try to find the extra whites before we get to Portugal.

Edit: Sorry got a bit confused there. Found it - 3 red hand 3 red para 2 floating smoke. One thing to note is that if you have flares they must be in date, by law. Also, you must have a lifejacket for every crewmember and liferafts must be serviced up to date.

The French requirements also include having a signal mirror and N and C signal flags. Are you over 12 metres? Hope you've got a ship's bell!

 

[GrahamM376]

I had heard (probably through these very pages) that Portugal requires 2 or 4 white flares (not sure of the number) as part of their list. My offshore pack does not contain these, and nor do French chandleries although I've only tried two places so far.

I'm not loosing any sleep over it but will try to find the extra whites before we get to Portugal.

White flares are not on the "official" Portuguese list but the Navy have been asking for them. List requirements are 6 x para, 4 x red, 2 x smoke.

 

[poter]

Thanks

OK thanks for that...

All the bits required by the French are onboard even though I am UK flaged, I was just checking on the Flare requirments.

Shady is 10.5 mts.

 

[rib]

well im glad some one knows.because the portugal navy didnt when thay stopped me! nore did the marine police till thay looked it up on their list,which was different to what the shop said i needed,confused............so was i.ohhhh but the fun eh

 

[GrahamM376]

well im glad some one knows.because the portugal navy didnt when thay stopped me! nore did the marine police till thay looked it up on their list,which was different to what the shop said i needed,confused............so was i.ohhhh but the fun eh

That's because they have 4 different (national) categories of boats, each with different numbers of flares and varying equipment levels. Then, just to make it more confusing, some areas also have local rules/bylaws and every official seems to have his own interpretation!

 

[rib]

i was told that thay lost a few peeps last year on the water,and its a knee jerk reaction.and that to forget about col regs just keep out of every bodys way !!!!!!!!.but i did enjoy cruising portugal much better then the med side

 

[LadyInBed]

Thought I would try looking up chandlers in Fr/Sp/Pt to see what flare packs they were selling
Found this for France
this for Spain but I don't know what the Nav zones are
I couldn't find any chandlers for Portugal but I did find this Safety Ordinance which includes flares but again I don't know what the different types (1-5) of pleasure craft are
Found it here
Vessels Classification

Oceanic Navigation - Suitable for unlimited surfing area (Type 1 );
Navigation Largo - Suitable for surf up to 200 miles off the coast (Type 2 )
Coastal Shipping - Suitable for coastal shipping up to 60 miles from a safe haven and 25 the coast (Type 3 );
restricted Coastal Shipping - Suitable for coastal shipping up to 20 miles from a harbor of refuge and 6 offshore (Type 4 );
Navigation Sheltered Waters - Suitable for sail along the coast and inland waters within a radius 3 miles from a safe haven (Type 5 ).;




What did we do before Google Translator?

 

[jimbaerselman]

I think you'll find the scope of cruising permitted (zones) corresponds to the CE mark classifications on the boat. What then happens is that each country then decides what equipment (if any) should be carried for each category for their registered boats.

Some officials then assume that their lists apply to all nationalities of registration - and, in their own waters, that is their right.

In the past there has been a high level of tolerance of other nation's views on these matters. Good for tourism and trade. However, it seems EU wide standardisation is creeping slowly up on us.

 

[Tranona]

I think you'll find the scope of cruising permitted (zones) corresponds to the CE mark classifications on the boat. What then happens is that each country then decides what equipment (if any) should be carried for each category for their registered boats.

Some officials then assume that their lists apply to all nationalities of registration - and, in their own waters, that is their right.

In the past there has been a high level of tolerance of other nation's views on these matters. Good for tourism and trade. However, it seems EU wide standardisation is creeping slowly up on us.

Only co-incidence. The categories predate CE classifications by a long way, and are usually based on distance from shore rather than expected conditions. CE/RCD is mainly concerned with design and construction standards and not safety equipment.

Whether local officials have the right to demand compliance from visiting boats is not clear. It would not be a local officials decision, but a deliberate state policy - which would indeed be possible. However, attempts to do this in the past have not been successful - or rather when New Zealand tried to do it they were challenged in their own courts and the challenge was successful.

No suggestion (that I have seen) that the EU plans to do anything as there is nothing in the EU that has any say in maritime safety at this level.

 

[maxi77]

Only co-incidence. The categories predate CE classifications by a long way, and are usually based on distance from shore rather than expected conditions. CE/RCD is mainly concerned with design and construction standards and not safety equipment.

Whether local officials have the right to demand compliance from visiting boats is not clear. It would not be a local officials decision, but a deliberate state policy - which would indeed be possible. However, attempts to do this in the past have not been successful - or rather when New Zealand tried to do it they were challenged in their own courts and the challenge was successful.

No suggestion (that I have seen) that the EU plans to do anything as there is nothing in the EU that has any say in maritime safety at this level.

I think you will find USCG enforce their rules on any one and everyone in their patch.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Only co-incidence. The categories predate CE classifications by a long way, and are usually based on distance from shore rather than expected conditions.

Agreed. I should have said "broadly corresponds"

No suggestion (that I have seen) that the EU plans to do anything as there is nothing in the EU that has any say in maritime safety at this level.

Again, agreed. This type of standardisation seems to be creeping in through practice, rather than international agreement. Each country picking up practice from neighbours.

 

[gavin_lacey]

There is still confusion over what the right of passage though a countries waters entails, but many countries seem to feel that the need to only comply with a flag state's rules ends if you put into one of their harbours. The uk has impounded foreign ships that were thought to be unfit to sail. Might is right when dealing with armed maritime police. The UK lax / non existent rules for pleasure craft are unbelievable to police in many european countries. They simply do not believe that you need a licence for a moped but not for an 800hp 38 foot power boat. Come to think of it nor do I.

 

[Tranona]

The "usual" distinction focuses on the concept of "innocent passage" which describes sailing through a coastal state's territorial waters and visiting a port in the way of normal business, when the coastal state will respect the flag state requirements (comity).

Once you get past this and are in transit from one port to another in the coastal state then in theory that state can enforce its own requirements on matters that are normally flag state requirements (principally safety equipment and crewing). So once you start cruising in France, Spain, Greece or wherever you could be subject to their registration requirements.

However as most of us have found out this is not enforced. Thousands of "foreign" boats are permanently based in other states, never mind cruising in their waters and rarely is there any issue, or demand to meet local registration requirements. There are from time to time instances of local officials demanding to see certain equipment as in Portugal recently, but there is little to suggest that there are any overt moves to enforce local requirements of boats registered in other states. Note there may be certain local taxes that visitors may be required to pay, such as light dues in Portugal, DEKPA in Greece, and outside the EU (Croatia and Turkey for example, cruising permits), but in general boats a free to move around most European countries without any difficulty.

 

[westernman]

The "usual" distinction focuses on the concept of "innocent passage" which describes sailing through a coastal state's territorial waters and visiting a port in the way of normal business, when the coastal state will respect the flag state requirements (comity).

Once you get past this and are in transit from one port to another in the coastal state then in theory that state can enforce its own requirements on matters that are normally flag state requirements (principally safety equipment and crewing). So once you start cruising in France, Spain, Greece or wherever you could be subject to their registration requirements.

However as most of us have found out this is not enforced. Thousands of "foreign" boats are permanently based in other states, never mind cruising in their waters and rarely is there any issue, or demand to meet local registration requirements. There are from time to time instances of local officials demanding to see certain equipment as in Portugal recently, but there is little to suggest that there are any overt moves to enforce local requirements of boats registered in other states. Note there may be certain local taxes that visitors may be required to pay, such as light dues in Portugal, DEKPA in Greece, and outside the EU (Croatia and Turkey for example, cruising permits), but in general boats a free to move around most European countries without any difficulty.

Provided you have the original of your registration document

 

[GrahamM376]

Thought I would try looking up chandlers in Fr/Sp/Pt to see what flare packs they were selling
I couldn't find any chandlers for Portugal but I did find this Safety Ordinance which includes flares but again I don't know what the different types (1-5) of pleasure craft are

For UK boats in Portugal, the Ocean category applies for everyone who has arrived by sea. This is because the UK has no regulations for small craft (except for those listed under SOLAS), allowing any boat to go Ocean. Other nationalities of boats which are classified for inshore/coastal/etc. under their national registration, can equip to those standards.

 

[Tranona]

Provided you have the original of your registration document

Quiet! Otherwise Toad will see this and there will be another 1000 posts of nonsense!