Flares and france

[fontmell]

Hi
Sorry if covered before. what is requirement for brit flagged 10m boat to carry flares in france? I can find french flagged boat requrement

• Hauturier : au-delà de 6 milles, sont obligatoires, un jeu de 3 feux à mains conforme aux normes SOLAS, 3 fusées parachute conformes aux normes SOLAS, 2 fumigènes conformes aux normes SOLAS.

But cant find if any allowance for electronic red flare or if brit boats are exempt

I ask because my flares now out of date (a no no in France) and i dont want to replace as consider them dangerous. plus have DSC, hand epirbs electronic flares etc
Any factul up to date info appreciated thanks

 

[Tranona]

No requirement to carry flares on a British registered boat visiting France, but as you say if you do they should be in date. Different if your boat is based in France when it has to comply with French rules, even if British registered.

 

[Sandy]

Electronic pyrotechnics chocolate tea pots are not part of the SOLAS regs. Until everybody sits round a table and amends the regs you won't see them mentioned.

Why do you consider pyrotechnics dangerous? Has there been a significant number of injuries or deaths because of them?

 

[Petertheking1982]

Sandy - New years day was the last fatality 'The tragic death of a Dutch sailor on New Year’s Day after setting off a flare has reignited criticism about the use of pyrotechnic flares on yachts. The RYA is urging authorities to adopt more modern technology for safety at sea. ' and from the same article 'There have been a number of accidents involving pyrotechnic flares in recent years. In May 2016, the RNLI Skegness Inshore Lifeboat caught fire and subsequently sank during a search after firing a white flare. '
Flare death in Pacific reignites pyrotechnic debate - Yachting Monthly

 

[Tranona]

Electronic pyrotechnics chocolate tea pots are not part of the SOLAS regs. Until everybody sits round a table and amends the regs you won't see them mentioned.

Why do you consider pyrotechnics dangerous? Has there been a significant number of injuries or deaths because of them?

The question was whether British registered boats visiting France are required to comply with French law.

Absolutely nothing to do with whether pyrotechnics are dangerous or useful, nor whether electronic devices are useful or not. Also nothing to with what SOLAS requires.

Keep to the question.

 

[Bouba]

Sandy - New years day was the last fatality 'The tragic death of a Dutch sailor on New Year’s Day after setting off a flare has reignited criticism about the use of pyrotechnic flares on yachts. The RYA is urging authorities to adopt more modern technology for safety at sea. ' and from the same article 'There have been a number of accidents involving pyrotechnic flares in recent years. In May 2016, the RNLI Skegness Inshore Lifeboat caught fire and subsequently sank during a search after firing a white flare. '
Flare death in Pacific reignites pyrotechnic debate - Yachting Monthly

Tragic indeed....yet they seem perfectly safe when used by 90,000 football fans

 

[Sandy]

Sandy - New years day was the last fatality 'The tragic death of a Dutch sailor on New Year’s Day after setting off a flare has reignited criticism about the use of pyrotechnic flares on yachts. The RYA is urging authorities to adopt more modern technology for safety at sea. '
Flare death in Pacific reignites pyrotechnic debate - Yachting Monthly

I was very, very careful in my my post, 'Has there been a significant number of injuries or deaths because of them?' given the date of the incident I'd be interested in reading any report on the incident as it raises a few questions in my mind a) was the flare being used to summon help or to celebrate the New Year and b) had the sailor been drinking intoxicating liquor.

The RYA, I am a member, is looking to stimulate debate with the IMO about the use of technology in the SOLAS regs that is their prerogative, but I'd like to know how they have come to that conclusion and why they consider it the correct decision, apart from it is new technology that was not around when the last regulations came into force in 1980.

 

[Sandy]

The question was whether British registered boats visiting France are required to comply with French law.

Absolutely nothing to do with whether pyrotechnics are dangerous or useful, nor whether electronic devices are useful or not. Also nothing to with what SOLAS requires.

Keep to the question.

Indeed it was. I hoped I gave some background why the French authorities did not make any reference to electronic pyrotechnics as they are not in the SOLAS regulations.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Why are flare defenders so obsessed?

There's no obligation to carry them, if a British based boat of modest size. So if someone doesn't want to, they shouldn't. End of. Original poster has clearly thought very carefully about their alternatives and emergency plans. If a French based boat, it looks like they might be obliged to. Shame, if based there. However it seems to be easier to dispose of old ones in France than here as there appear to be more opportunities there to let the things off, getting a bit of practice in.

I don't think they're too dangerous to have around, though they do cause the occasional ghastly accident (even among footy fans) - but I think they're not very useful, and a hassle. Just for you, Sandy, when I finally manage to get rid of the huge decaying pile of the bloody things I carelessly acquired with my boat, I will put a chocolate teapot in the locker they now occupy. Then in an emergency I can have some chocolate.

 

[Tranona]

Indeed it was. I hoped I gave some background why the French authorities did not make any reference to electronic pyrotechnics as they are not in the SOLAS regulations.

Can you give me a definitive reference that confirms this is the reason. And again it was nothing to do with the question which I remind you was whether the OP has to carry flares when he visits France.

 

[Sandy]

Can you give me a definitive reference that confirms this is the reason. And again it was nothing to do with the question which I remind you was whether the OP has to carry flares when he visits France.

Where in the SOLAS regulations does it mention electronic pyrotechnics? Given they came into force in 1980 well before the technology was invented they don't. As a result ANY nation will not mention electronic pyrotechnics in their national requirements.

I beg to differ, it has everything to do with 'But cant find if any allowance for electronic red flare or if brit boats are exempt'. I agree that the French have a requirement that if you carry pyrotechnics then they should be in date.

What do I know? Prior to retirement I worked as part of a team involved in the setting and agreement of International Standards (ISO) and their implementation in the UK for safety critical stuff.

 

[Sandy]

Why are flare defenders so obsessed?

Perhaps I am one, but spent five years in a Mountain Rescue Team, and have used and seen them in action. In my eyes they are proven to work. I am not convinced that an electronic pyrotechnic has the same impact. No WOW factor. I'm not convinced that Joe Public would look out to sea and realised what that flashing red light on the horizon was.

Just for you, Sandy, when I finally manage to get rid of the huge decaying pile of the bloody things I carelessly acquired with my boat, I will put a chocolate teapot in the locker they now occupy. Then in an emergency I can have some chocolate.

Do you not have a friendly chandlery that will take them? Enjoy your chocolate, I hope it is not Mars Bars as they are nowhere as good as they were.

Just to prove I am moving with the times I've recently invested in an Ocean Signal PLB3 as I am usually single handed and if I go for an unplanned swim want to be able to shout for help as the boat heads off at five knots.

 

[Roberto]

No requirements for boats owned by non-French residents. As a curiosity, if one has a vhf DSC radio then French regulations require only hand flares (not smoke nor parachute).

 

[justanothersailboat]

I seriously doubt the average member of the public on the beach these days knows what parachute flares look like/are for, either. (hey look that boat's got fireworks!). The distress LED things seem like they might not be for the same job of attracting initial attention, but probably quite adequate for showing someone who from radio/beacon already knows the GPS coordinates of your cockpit (let alone your entire boat) exactly where to look, or which of several remarkably similar white sloops is the one in distress. And they keep well and you can check if the battery still works before setting out.

Chandleries usually want to do exchanges - not just take a fee for getting rid of the old ones without replacement - as the current rules limit them to quite small storage. If you can find one that does that at all. Some places are miles from anywhere that will.

With the current state of the Mars Bar I think having them in the emergency locker might put me off declaring an emergency at all! Though they would probably emit a conspicuous cloud of smoke if ignited... they seem waxy enough...

Roberto, that is an interesting extra detail about the French rules that didn't come up before. Good to know.

 

[Boathook]

Why are flare defenders so obsessed?

There's no obligation to carry them, if a British based boat of modest size. So if someone doesn't want to, they shouldn't. End of. Original poster has clearly thought very carefully about their alternatives and emergency plans. If a French based boat, it looks like they might be obliged to. Shame, if based there. However it seems to be easier to dispose of old ones in France than here as there appear to be more opportunities there to let the things off, getting a bit of practice in.

I don't think they're too dangerous to have around, though they do cause the occasional ghastly accident (even among footy fans) - but I think they're not very useful, and a hassle. Just for you, Sandy, when I finally manage to get rid of the huge decaying pile of the bloody things I carelessly acquired with my boat, I will put a chocolate teapot in the locker they now occupy. Then in an emergency I can have some chocolate.

Hopefully the link will work Environmental Facilities Map - The Green Blue shows flare disposal points. Some have limits on the numbers they will take, etc so worth ringing before going.

 

[Tranona]

Where in the SOLAS regulations does it mention electronic pyrotechnics? Given they came into force in 1980 well before the technology was invented they don't. As a result ANY nation will not mention electronic pyrotechnics in their national requirements.

I beg to differ, it has everything to do with 'But cant find if any allowance for electronic red flare or if brit boats are exempt'. I agree that the French have a requirement that if you carry pyrotechnics then they should be in date.

What do I know? Prior to retirement I worked as part of a team involved in the setting and agreement of International Standards (ISO) and their implementation in the UK for safety critical stuff.

You are always on about what you used to do for a living - I was an academic and learned to question things rather than accept what other people say about a subject.

I asked a simple question - where is your evidence that the lack of mention of electronic flares in French requirements is because they are not in SOLAS? if you want to use what other bodies require or approve then note the the USCG approve the use of electronic flares so your first statement is incorrect. Regulatory bodies are not bound by SOLAS. Our own only uses the very basic almost meaningless bits in relation to small pleasure boats and relies on individuals to make their own decisions on what equipment to carry on their boats.

You re just using this very simple questions to peddle your own agenda - it is completely irrelevant to the OPs question whether electronic flares are required in France so why are you making an issue of it?

It really does help having an open and enquiring mind rather than trotting out the same old stuff which often does not stand up to rigorous scrutiny.

 

[Tranona]

Perhaps I am one, but spent five years in a Mountain Rescue Team, and have used and seen them in action. In my eyes they are proven to work. I am not convinced that an electronic pyrotechnic has the same impact. No WOW factor. I'm not convinced that Joe Public would look out to sea and realised what that flashing red light on the horizon was.

Again you are trotting out the same (almost) irrelevant stuff. There is no dispute that flares, particularly red and orange smoke are more visible than electronic beams in certain circumstances. The real question is whether that property is of use to yachtsmen. That is will they ever get into a situation where this property will be of value? and justify the risks associated with the use of explosive devices in close proximity to the person? The answer to that is probably no for 99.999...% of people going to sea in small yachts.

Flares are safe when they are kept in a dry enclosed space, which is what happens to a similarly high proportion of those made, kept a few years in a tub on a boat then destroyed. However when they are used in anger they are dangerous and the proportion of injuries suddenly becomes significant - but probably acceptable when the alternative could be death. It is false reasoning to base the argument on there being few injuries/deaths - this is because there are few incidents of flares being used in anger. It is the same as the argument with liferafts - the number of failures is low because the number of deployments is low, but as noted in various MAIB reports the proportion of failures is worryingly high.

So, just to be clear, if I was going offshore or ocean cruising and expecting extreme weather I would carry flares and a liferaft, EPIRB and anything else that I thought would improve my chances of rescue when I got out of range of the excellent coastal based rescue services. However for the vast majority of UK coastal (and near "offshore") UK sailors flares are irrelevant. It is sobering to note how few incidents there have been in the last 10 years or so that have resulted in deployment of liferafts and flares compared with the previous 10 years. Suggest that is a consequence of the popularity of electronic devices that keep yachts away from danger and if they do get into trouble the effectiveness of the multiple methods of communication now available.

All of this makes flares despite their known properties, which have not changed, largely irrelevant.

 

[westernman]

The French regulations as currently written require "Trois feux rouges à main".
No other flares of any kind are required. No connection with having or not VHF or VHF with DSC. [ For instance for the category "cotier", less than 6nm from a safe haven, the flares are required but not VHF is required ].

You can download the definitive text here https://www.mer.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/2021-02/equipement_secu_plaisance_4p_DEF_Web.pdf
Check page 24 for a succint overview of what is required for different categories of navigation. The last but one "Semi-hauturier" 6nm to 60nm, the last one "hauturier" more than 60nm from a safe haven.

Some additional information here Le matériel d’armement et de sécurité et les limites d’utilisation (which also contains above link).

 

[Refueler]

The question was whether British registered boats visiting France are required to comply with French law.

Absolutely nothing to do with whether pyrotechnics are dangerous or useful, nor whether electronic devices are useful or not. Also nothing to with what SOLAS requires.

Keep to the question.

Actually OP was instigator of the dangerous aspect ...

I ask because my flares now out of date (a no no in France) and i dont want to replace as consider them dangerous.

 

[Petertheking1982]

Tragic indeed....yet they seem perfectly safe when used by 90,000 football fans

No they are not regarded as safe at football stadiums.
THE DANGERS OF PYROTECHNICS AT FOOTBALL MATCHES

In the official recognised distress list (col regs annexe) you still have a burning barrel of tar, firing your shotgun, and star shells from your cannon. The RYA seem to now advise not to use pyrotechnics , and the US coastguard allow electronic flares. Time adn technology moves on. I love one of the quotes in the YM article, 'Flares didn’t work for the Titanic and they don’t work for us'