Fischer Panda 5000i Neo

[Bouba]

Saw this generator today. It's just released and has lots of features
https://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/res/5000i Neo Flyer.pdf
Single cylinder, variable speed and the engine is now made in house by FP (i think)
Its very small and incredibly light at 75 kg
But the price is 6000€ including VAT (France) that's like nearly half the price of an Onan.
They say fitting is very easy so I'm hoping it's less than the 3000€ Onan want. Now this is too new to have any reviews online so I'm hoping someone here may have some inside info.
What does anyone think? The price is a boat show special so I might be rushing into a decision

 

[longjohnsilver]

Saw this generator today. It's just released and has lots of features
https://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/res/5000i Neo Flyer.pdf
Single cylinder, variable speed and the engine is now made in house by FP (i think)
Its very small and incredibly light at 75 kg
But the price is 6000€ including VAT (France) that's like nearly half the price of an Onan.
They say fitting is very easy so I'm hoping it's less than the 3000€ Onan want. Now this is too new to have any reviews online so I'm hoping someone here may have some inside info.
What does anyone think? The price is a boat show special so I might be rushing into a decision

There must be a reason for it being half the price of an Onan. All the people I know that have/had a FP genny have had major issues with them. I know nothing more about them but that admittedly small number with 100% reliability issues would be enough to put me off.

 

[Bouba]

There must be a reason for it being half the price of an Onan. All the people I know that have/had a FP genny have had major issues with them. I know nothing more about them but that admittedly small number with 100% reliability issues would be enough to put me off.

Yes, the history is a bit dubious. But this one is made in house and all the others the motors were farmed out. Also it's only one cylinder where as the Onan is three so it's revvy and maybe noisier, I don't know.
But price is an issue, I'm talking about a bit of 'leccy on a 34 foot boat for €17,000!!! Surely it's worth a risk to get that down by half?

 

[Barbican]

Im not sure which onan you're comparing this to, mine is a 4kva MDKBH. its a two cylinder Kubota of about 600cc (from memory) and runs at a steady 2200rpm.

The Panda appears to be much lighter, Id guess half the weight, a bit more compact, and a smaller single cylinder engine (albeit not the original Farryman). Output and noise seem to be on a par with Onan, despite full power being 3000rpm, so all in all I can see why your interested. Only issue I would have is the unproven motor, but they must have had a field test program.

Installation cant be very different I wouldn't have thought, so I would want to see how the Panda will be significantly different.

Good Luck, and let us know how it pans out

 

[longjohnsilver]

Yes, the history is a bit dubious. But this one is made in house and all the others the motors were farmed out. Also it's only one cylinder where as the Onan is three so it's revvy and maybe noisier, I don't know.
But price is an issue, I'm talking about a bit of 'leccy on a 34 foot boat for €17,000!!! Surely it's worth a risk to get that down by half?

Yes, I can see why you're interested, in your shoes so would I. However I'd be tempted to use a Honda suitcase genny, their 2kw version has great reviews and is extremely quiet and quite light. And much, much less expensive than a fixed genny. Don't know if the output is sufficient for your needs, if it is, it's worth a go. If you don't get on with it you will be able to sell it on easily and without losing very much of the original purchase price.

 

[Portofino]

It's double cooled -- that means water through the engine and the windings
That's ok in theory .
Remember before any buts in we talking small genys perhaps infrequently used and often on 30-40 ft out drive boats stuffed in some hard to get @ corner ! --left stewing -pickling in salt water --- Nice !--

I had a FP albeit older 2003 4.2 Kv with the Farryman -factory SSeeker instal -- it's all they had @ the time .

Basic issue is the anodic protection of the winding s --it was a sizeable replaceable "water conection block "
Avoid it ,or when installing make it easy to get at .
How -ever being "German" and engineering wise they may have found a better way to protect the windings .
As mentioned new in house engine -- two sides of the toast as it drops -- one -being German ,it's engineering excellence ( rest of the world -kubota ,Yanmar -- not good enough !) -
Or --- you are the guinea pig -- bless em
Sure 75 kg is an eye opener -but that excludes the inverter PME thingy say 8 Kg
My MASE is 95 kg all up in a sound proof box for comp 3.5 Kv -- but brings /opens up 220 v and long stays at anchor in the Hot Med .Its also air cooled and Yanmar powered -no seawater runs through the windings or the engine .
2001 -still going -Last time I looked @ Cannes not for off @€7 -8 k - ish ??

So its a €17K or a seemingly €6k question .
Land your toast butter side up --ck out the anodic protection -pray the Germans can do a small diesel --pretty good odds !
Go for it ------- and promise to report back annually .

Which Geny is OEM --for instal comparision re space ?

 

[Portofino]

The important USP with MASE is the "intercooled W/A "

I think this point is lost on most folks --- keeping salt water off the expensive metal bits --

It's a little rad like on a motor bike inside the box .
Part 21 the "intercooler W/A"

Seawater is pumped through and the cool air is fanned about ---importantly no sea water comes in to contact with the windings or the engine block .
Once pumped through the rad ---
It's ejected via a stainless steel exhaust manifold --
They do several "intercooled W/A " --- various sizes

Note the Db @7 m 54 same as the new FP 5000 i. ---- which reckons ( well the mkt men ) to be quiet ?

http://www.masenorthamerica.com/en/component/attachments/download/113.html

The belt is a Citreon AX 1-0 € 4 from a French auto spares .
The water pump is boggo Johnson , with a € 10 impeller
All parts available from every ware inc Halliday Marine on Porqueroles --don,t ask me how I know .

FP do a toothed belt -specialist € 24 + tax + shipping -- nobody stocks en

 

[jfm]

I must say I quite like that FP. I'm not generally a fan of inverter gensets because I think boat comfort is improved if the genset does a constant 1500rpm rather then revving up if someone puts the kettle on, but if they have done good job of sound insulation that matters less. And anyway everything is a compromise: if you want 1500rpm (or 1800 in USA) you have to buy a bigger engine block and you pay for that in money, weight and footprint. There is no doubt that ever cheaper inverters/VFDs that are becoming ubiquitous (on home washing machines and airco, for example) are making for ever cheaper gensets without compromising quality, if you can manange the sound intrusion, or if it is for temporary use on a small boat and you don't care about the noise.

I don't buy all this talk of water jackets and corrosion. You can flush it out for winter lay up (or fit an every-trip freshwater flush system as I have for my engines, gensets and airco, if you can be bothered) and ultimately you chuck it in a skip/poubelle and buy a new one. The water jacket helps with noise, and I would very happily take the corrosion "problem" to get even a small noise reduction.

So just from that link it looks to me like FP have done a good job here. 5kva in a 400-500mm "cube" @75kg (plus another small inverter box). I might look at one as a night gen or a low load gen, instead of running a 3.3litre monster just to boil a kettle or run stabilisation. I'd really like to hear one running.

Beware of comparing installation costs unless you are sure of what you're getting. It is easy to reduce the price by cutting exhaust components and using brass seacocks as is common in France etc. Maybe this FP doesn't have water injection into the exhaust and doesn't need a separator - I have no idea.

On a separate point I didn't get Porto's comment that Kubota engines are not good enough. They're widely regarded as best in class bar none.

 

[petem]

What's required to install a Gennie like this?

I assume some kind of fuel supply from the main tank, raw water intake and some pipework for the exhaust. On top of that there's a remote control panel and of course a shelf to place it on. How are they hooked up to the boats electrics?

On the face of it, none of the above sounds terribly time consuming does it, or am I missing something?

 

[Portofino]

On a separate point I didn't get Porto's comment that Kubota engines are not good enough. They're widely regarded as best in class bar none.

Agreed that's why I raised an eyebrow -- why go the trouble of in house when you can pick up a proven Japanese off the shelf .Euro -emmisions ? Perhaps ,but I,am sure Kubota and Yanmar are not going to kiss goodbye to the EU mkt any time soon .

Small genys in small boats in cramped ERoom s need a different mind set to larger genys in the Albert hall with easy access which are used dailey and easy to winterise .

Small genys just corrode away that's there demise ,not hrs .
Hence the issues of if poss its better if the salt water never touches the block and windings .
In theory ageed no water jacket thinks VW beetle rattling away -sure ,But see the dB figures both 54 @7 m for the old
MASE eg a3.5 or 4 AND the brand new engined FP5000i .I,am surprised @ that where's the improvement FP ?

Of course re niose there other consideration like instal issues -ready soundproofed ER + you can easiely add further sound
proofing to them -- if that's the issue .
The old FP I had corroded way --- as said they the Germans, may have got around that anodic protection issue or lack of it !
I would research that before buying a 2017 FP
Just google FP Geny probs .

As said MASE do larger air cooled "intercooled W/A " as well as trad seawater cooled .Your choise all Kubota /yanmar

But the smaller stuff sub 6-7 Kv or what ever is all Aircooled -- It can,t corrode away .
There's a small easy to get at pencil anode in the rad -

Could understand the advantage of double seawater ( engine n windings ) if it was significantly more silent .
Neither the FP 3600 rpm or the MASE 2900 rpm rev up -when the kettle goes on - just constant speed .

Hope this helps.

 

[npf1]

I thought FP stopped using direct cooling about fifteen/sixteen years ago.

 

[Portofino]

What's required to install a Gennie like this?

I assume some kind of fuel supply from the main tank, raw water intake and some pipework for the exhaust. On top of that there's a remote control panel and of course a shelf to place it on. How are they hooked up to the boats electrics?

On the face of it, none of the above sounds terribly time consuming does it, or am I missing something?

Yes your are and many builders too -no worries . Let's tick that box --"Geny "
Again a retune of ones mindset is need with tiny Geny instal .
In a typical 10-12 m boat you are never gonna be far when either in the cockpit or saloon ,and think about the folks in the aft cabin . So most of the time most folks less than 2-3 M away .
A flat shelf is the worst place ,or near any flat surface due to resonance -- but as intimated the small the boat beggars can,t be chooser s .
So all that theorectical dB stuff on the hand out given to you by the rep @ the boat show is all Bolox .
Ideally it needs to be on a frame mounted high away from any flat surfaces or if low down in the V ,if yourboat has a v in the E room .
There issues in a little boat of rhe noise from the exhaust .
JFM -they all dump the seawater into the exhaust Manifold .
Is that manifold cast metal or stainless steel -check that out before buying -- I don,t need to tell you why Surley ?

You can get at extra € a super silent kit whereby the gas and water are seperated .Otherwise both come out noisily together above the WL .
Remember the folks are maybe a bit further away now let's add a M or so bring it 3-4 M .
Above the WL the water makes a horrible trickle noise -- it's surprising how far that sound travels on a still calm anchorage
You can opt for the water discharge any height - suggest @ or just below WL -- your choise .
The gas IMHO should exit above the WL @ the stern .
Some gurgle away as if the exit is too low and semi submerges as the boat rocks --you don,t want that .

You also need a anti syphoning device (easy off the shelf ) if its has a water cooled engine .Working properly this divice prevents water syphoning back into the stopped engine -the issue potentially you are try to avoid is filling up the exhaust manifold and water running into the cylinder through an open exhaust valve -when the engine is stopped .
There a similar issue routing the exhaust tube re relative heights and the boat rolling or tilting .

The diesel needs a prefilter easy rocar jobbie and maybe a seperate fuel pump -- it's all in the instal manual .

I would get a boat sparky to hook up --all sorts of potential LBOK looming !!

 

[Portofino]

I thought FP stopped using direct cooling about fifteen/sixteen years ago.

Yes they do now --so should be ok re corossion issues , in the proposed 5000i

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I would get a boat sparky to hook up --all sorts of potential LBOK looming !!

Maybe, although I found the electrical connection for my Onan the easiest bit - I just used a changeover contactor so that when the generator comes up, the supply is automatically switched over. Easy, and works perfectly.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Yes, I can see why you're interested, in your shoes so would I. However I'd be tempted to use a Honda suitcase genny, their 2kw version has great reviews and is extremely quiet and quite light. And much, much less expensive than a fixed genny. Don't know if the output is sufficient for your needs, if it is, it's worth a go. If you don't get on with it you will be able to sell it on easily and without losing very much of the original purchase price.

There's really no comparison between a suitcase petrol generator that sits on your bathing platform Vs a properly installed diesel unit. As good as the Honda is, it still makes a racket and is too noisy for use anywhere where there are other boats nearby.

 

[Rgrwynne]

According to the FP website the engine in the 5000i is a Kubota. These engines used by FP are rated as being some of the best in the world and used extensively in all types of markets. The last few years reviews of FP products has generally been very positive, and they are sold globally, not many inherent problems.

 

[ARE]

Saw this generator today. It's just released and has lots of features
https://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/res/5000i Neo Flyer.pdf
Single cylinder, variable speed and the engine is now made in house by FP (i think)
Its very small and incredibly light at 75 kg
But the price is 6000€ including VAT (France) that's like nearly half the price of an Onan.
They say fitting is very easy so I'm hoping it's less than the 3000€ Onan want. Now this is too new to have any reviews online so I'm hoping someone here may have some inside info.
What does anyone think? The price is a boat show special so I might be rushing into a decision

Have you looked at purchasing a Onan here in the U.K? A 4kW would be around £6100 from a dealer -http://www.seapowermarine.com/parts-shop/cummins-onan/generator-sales/generators/mdkbh2015-10-03-04-12-591108380665/mdkbh-4kw-12-volt-negative-ground-details.html

Regards Anthony

 

[Rgrwynne]

Apologies was looking at wrong model, Fischer Panda have developed their own engine. Still like Kubota though, proven !!

 

[superheat6k]

Some basics to consider here ...

Non Inverter models have to run at either 3000 RPM 2 pole or 1500 RPM 4 pole to produce 50 hz output. 50 cycles per second x 60 secs = 3,000. A four pole generator will produce the same output at half the speed.

Single cylinder engines do not carry enough momentum at 1500 rpm so have to rev at 3000 rpm this makes them noisy.

Most 1500 rpm engines will be twin cylinder providing a power stroke every revolution and will run quieter.

Either will simply produce a true sine wave output so no trouble with the kit being driven from this power source.

Then if you use an inverter generator the shaft speed doesn't matter, the engine will rev up to produce more power and slow for less. It is the inverters job to maintain a fixed output frequency and voltage. The issue with inverters is how complex they are to produce a proper sine wave output.

The traditional Farymann driven generator of ~ 4kVA is almost always a generic of the Paguro unit using a Volpi alternator. The various manufacturers simply dress them slightly differently, but essentially they are the same unit - Westerbeke, Fischer Panda, Mastervolt, etc. all Paguro really. These are simple raw water cooled engines and will serve occasional users well, but are prone to exhaust valve corrosion. Having said this the one on my Turbo 36 had accrued all of 65 hours after 28 years. But it was difficult and expensive because of exhaust valve issues due to the salt water sitting just below it in the water cooled exhaust.

So does 2 hours per annum justify ~£8k to install plus annual repair bill of ~ £50 - 100 ? Or perhaps some extra batteries at ~ £100 each.

 

[Bouba]

Yes, I can see why you're interested, in your shoes so would I. However I'd be tempted to use a Honda suitcase genny, their 2kw version has great reviews and is extremely quiet and quite light. And much, much less expensive than a fixed genny. Don't know if the output is sufficient for your needs, if it is, it's worth a go. If you don't get on with it you will be able to sell it on easily and without losing very much of the original purchase price.

I have the very same suitcase, at low output it's very quiet otherwise v. noisy especially on the swim platform. The last time I used it I had a yachtswoman literally praying for me to turn it off. And when I finally did the motorboaters clapped. I didn't feel bad since none of them complained to the superyacht about the all night disco and why were they all parked next to me in the first place.
But that's when the search for a quieter but cheap power started