First time buyer looking for advice

[andymcp]

I've been through transactions with family before, but am currently on the hunt for our first 'real' boat. We aim to go for new abroad in '09, but are really keen to have a season on an older boat getting used to the joy/pain of ownership for a year here first, with the boat closer to hand before we commit to ownership further afield.

While I have the long check-list of Must-Haves, Nice-To-Haves and so on, I'm increasingly bewildered by the process and expectations of buying a boat. Informed opinion here suggests the market is slow but I'm not really seeing huge movement on the boats advertised, which leads me to believe the reductions are all part of the dark arts of the offer/acceptance process. Can anyone here give me a simple walk-through of the average purchase process from a broker for a second-hand boat?

We have our preferences on make/model, but I'll save the boat-choice ribbing for later if that's OK. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Thaumaturge]

Hi Andy. We are going through the process too, and, it is pretty much a 'suck it and see' situation. We are torn between getting the best bargain we can whilst trying not to hurt the feelings of someone selling his/her obvious 'pride & joy'

I was trolling through the US based sites the other day, and, as we are trying to capitalise on the weakness of the US economy wondered how our bid and offer mentality would be received on the other side of the pond. (Get to the point Vince!) I found a site, transcript below, which you might find interesting.



When buying real estate, boats, or anything, I ignore asking price completely. Asking price is just a figment of the seller's imagination and has absolutely nothing to do with me. I'm not looking to make new friends or enter into a "relationship", I'm looking to buy something. I already have friends.

Then I make sure I'm the best buyer I can be. Pay in cash, have all the time in the world to make a deal, have options so I don't fall in love with any particular property, NEVER "narrow down my choices", try to remain flexible until the end, stay level headed and cool, be honest and straight forward, be nice and smile a lot, etc.

Then I try to find the best seller. Desperate, "just wants out", has a great property, has dreams they can't get to because they are stuck in their current situation, have had their property on the market a long time, and at best are rude or abrasive and thus very bad sellers that buyers walk away from, etc.

Then I make my offer. Any property has an intrinsic value, a real worth, and I like to base my offer on that. Mostly though it's about what I want to pay, and not just the "what can I stretch" amount, but the "what am I completely at ease and comfortable with" amount. If the property is over-priced I also like to make an offer that is low enough to get past all of the "it's too low, we need to negotiate, tell him to offer more" price, and get down really deep into the "oh my god, how could he offer so little, he must know how desperate and full of sh#t we are" price. That cuts down on non-sense, because they either say no quickly, or they don't say no quickly in which case you know you can close the deal just by coming up a little in price. In the end, they either take the offer or they don't, it really has nothing to do with you. If you have options it really doesn't matter one way or the other, you just smile at them as you walk out of the room with what they were starting to fondly think of as "their money".

Cash is a great instrument, you can buy any boat with it, everybody loves your cash, it's never the wrong make or model, it doesn't need to be surveyed, it doesn't get blisters, it's just a fantastic thing to have on your side of the negotiation.

Boats are NOT good instruments, you have to find exactly the person who wants it, it has problems (they all do), it's costing you money while it sits there unsold, unless it's a work boat is just a toy and a luxury item, etc, and it's not such a great thing to have on your side of the deal.

Bad things to do include ...

- Getting your heart set on one property. You know who you are, "narrowing down" your choices to that "one perfect boat", window shopping for things that will go on the boat before you even own it, flying all around the country looking for that one boat you've been dreaming about for the past 10 years, spending money on things to go in the boat before you even close the deal, etc.
- Paying with anything other than cash.
- Being rude to the seller, or a jerk in general.
- Being in a hurry to close the deal.
- Making friends with the seller before you close the deal.
- Losing control of the deal and allowing a broker to run the show.
- Etc ...



Brokers won't particularly thank you, but I hope this helps?

Vince

 

[andymcp]

Cheers Vince, sound advice.

We did also ask a broker for a brief description of the purchase process. I think it stretched to "Offer, deposit, survey, pay, sail". Which is great if everything is perfect, but I don't want to faff around making offers on boats that then take an age to rectify faults on, and buying second-hand I'm expecting there will be some essentials need done.

Also, we're really noticed that (in this neck of the woods at least) certain brokers vastly over-state the condition of boats. Makes for frustrating viewing trips, and I'm sure they're not really wanting lots of wasted fender-kickers, so why do it?

 

[Twister_Ken]

>so why do it? <

It's genetic. They're incapable of describing a boat any other way.

"A dog of a design, dropped by its builder after only two years in production, this under-ruddered, under-keeled caravan is finished in chalky-white gel coat nicely complemented by yellow stains around the waterline, soot deposits under the exhaust outlet, and rust streaks from the toe rail. The sails, supplied by the builder from the lowest-bidder sail loft in Bhutan really should be replaced immediately, but will make very little difference to the sailing performance.

The deck, a fetching shade of puce, has very few dings from dropped equipment, and a minimal number of red wine stains. The deck equipment would be admirable on a 20 foot day sailer but is perhaps a little underspecified for this 40 footer.

There is a full suite of electronic navigation equipment, some of which works. The rest will need replacement valves, which can occasionally be found on eBay.

Below decks, upholstery is in fetching shades of orange and green, the heads will require power-washing, the generous galley sink is big enough to handle washing-up from a crew of six - in fact that's exactly what it is still doing. Damp and mildew is not too extensive, and the lifting veneers of the interior woodwork require a little attention.

At Crib and Cavil Yachtbrokers we invite offers in the region £3.75, plus unpaid yard fees."

 

[Sailfree]

Ken,

Where did you see the description of our boat when its never been on the market? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[andymcp]

Ach well, I guess that's just boating life....

Still, makes me reluctant to jump on a plane whenever there's a promising one listed.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I make my offer. Any property has an intrinsic value, a real worth, and I like to base my offer on that. Mostly though it's about what I want to pay, and not just the "what can I stretch" amount, but the "what am I completely at ease and comfortable with" amount.

Cash is a great instrument, you can buy any boat with it, everybody loves your cash, it's never the wrong make or model, it doesn't need to be surveyed, it doesn't get blisters, it's just a fantastic thing to have on your side of the negotiation.

Boats are NOT good instruments, you have to find exactly the person who wants it, it has problems (they all do), it's costing you money while it sits there unsold, unless it's a work boat is just a toy and a luxury item, etc, and it's not such a great thing to have on your side of the deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

When buying Rogue, I had researched the market, (I had about 3 years between deciding what I was going to do, and having the money to do it), and decided that an average Moody 44 was worth about £120K, and that was roughly what I was going to pay, and what I did pay. Asking price didnt come into it.

I'll never forget my A level maths teacher saying:

"You can always turn your money into a calculator, but you will never turn your calculator back into the same money"

same with boats, more or less.

FWIW

Richard

 

[andymcp]

[ QUOTE ]
Asking price didnt come into it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to take asking prices seriously anyway. Earlier this year we were looking at Moodys, trying to find what may be a fair price/condition. On average the 346 seemed to hover around the £50K asking price. One came up at a Scottish broker, listed at around £52 IIRC. We went down to look and it was in shocking condition. Everything on board had been 'fixed', never replaced. Where the asking price came from, I have no idea...... My newbie opinion would have been around £10-£15K to get it to the sort of condition I would have wanted.

 

[Richard10002]

Keep an eye on the Moody Owners Association pages.... people usually put there boats there, (as well as elsewhere), and you can often get some honest opinions from others about the condition of them.

here too.

 

[Thaumaturge]

When in Greece, on holiday, we were passing near to where an attractive sounding boat was moored and offered for sale. It was listed by a reputable (?) broker as being in "first class sailaway condition"!

We duly 'phoned aforementioned broker and made an appointment to view a few days hence. The evening before the appointment we arrived in the town and headed, unannounced, down to the marina to find a veritable family 'army' frantically wielding paint brushes in the process of the last minute 'tart-up".

Upon arriving for our formal viewing we found a boat that had patently been maintained and modified by angle grinder! It was very difficult to maintain a straight face with the seller, who was the most affable and generous host, as we gently broke the news that his boat wasn't for us, and wished him luck in finding a suitably interested buyer.

It transpired later that the broker listed this (and many other vessels apparently) without ever seeing the boat.

Caveat emptor!

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

Thanks for that description, I nearly threw up laughing! Classic.

 

[Stemar]

I'd add a few points:

1. You don't buy a boat with your head. Buying a boat just isn't a rational thing to do! Do your homework, initial survey and negitiation in cold blood, but even if everything adds up, if the boat doesn't wink at you and say, "Buy me, I'm the one!" I don't reckon she's the one for you.

2. Subject to (1) above, you can make outrageous offers and when they're refused indignantly, just say, "Here's my number. The offer will stay on the table until I buy something else." I've heard of a number of people getting absolute bargains that way.

3. When doing your homework and considering a boat that would be great with a bit of work, remember that everything takes twice as long and costs 3 times as much (or vice versa) as you calculate.