Firing Ranges

[alant]

Most of us sailing around the UK have at some time been harried by 'Range Safety Boats' when making a more direct course to a destination. With many of these ranges, which seem to be in the most inconvenient areas for boats to avoid, being deemed 'open' every Monday - Friday, with red flags flying even when it is suspected that no firing exercises are actually taking place.

I was once advised by a prominent Barrister, that sailing across an area designated as eg a Firing Range, could be insisted upon using the legal phraseology that " I am exercising my right of innocent passage" - broadcasting this on VHF 16.

Has anyone else heard of or tried this?

 

[whisper]

Up until recently there was a range just to the NE. of the entrance to Plymouth. If you wanted to travel from there to the Yealm you just went through it as if it wasn't there - presumably on the basis of this right to passage. Or atleast we always did /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[BrendanS]

Yes. They cannot on most ranges actually stop you. A prime example is St Albans Head, Lulworth firing range.

Herein lies a long story. The club were harrying along a rag tag bunch of boats, some of them quite small in powerboat terms. They went straight across as despite protests from range boats, organisers didn't think that taking smaller boats 5 miles out to make allowance for firing range was a good idea in the conditions. Decision of the co-ordinator of the event, that safety of boats was first. Hmm! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I organise a club trip annually from Solent, Poole to Weymouth. I religously ring before hand, and you can find out the days they won't be firing, but often told they will be. Only to find when you arrive there that they aren't

So now we compromise.

If the range boat is there, and they do the go out to sea on 240 degrees for 5 miles before heading to Lulworth Cove, we usually do. If we feel it's better for the safety of the boats in the cruise to stay inshore in the conditions, we would do so, but never had to do so while I've been leading it.

We did one year though, with just three boats. All capable of cruising at over 45knts at least for a while in conditions that good. Head out for over 4 miles, past second range boat at 3 miles, then angled over towards Lulworth. The 3 mile out boat, something similar to a semi-ish displacement immmediately gunned up it's engines and raced towards us, straight across the range! at uhhm, 10 knts. By the time we'd gone, it was still lumbering across the range. They'd have lost less range time by just waving us through.

After calling the range to see if they'd be firing on Sunday, we headed out from Weymouth to the 5 mile off waypoint in flat calm oily sea, only to see a few yachts inshore with no firing.

The next year, also told they would be firing, but it was roughish, but headed out from the beginning, to give us an option of inside or outside round St Albans. Guess what, no firing going on, so headed north and went in close to the coast past St Albans.

I don't mind going offshore if they are firing, but would like to make the choice between inside passage at St Albans or 5 mile off a bit closer than just when you arrive. Easier to do in a fast powerboat than a raggie, but you can still get a bit peeved if not told a bit further out. Why they have to hold boards over the side of the boat telling you which channel to go to on VHF to talk also irritates me - haven't they heard of Ch16?

mini rant over /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[TigaWave]

In Cornwall they shout at you from the cliff tops with a loud hailer...but of course you cant hear what they are saying?

 

[snowleopard]

in the case of naval gunnery ranges they are deliberately sending heavy ordnance out to sea. on the other hand many of the danger areas are simply rifle ranges where the targets are at the seaward end. a case in point is tregantle fort just W of plymouth.

for there to be a risk of stray bullets a shot has to go clear over the top of the butts which is an extremely rare event. i know of it happening only twice in 10 years of regular shooting. the maximum range of a .762mm round is nominally 3 miles but to achieve that you would need to fire upwards at around 45 degrees. a shot going just over the butts would hit the water inside a mile.

so the level of danger is pretty minute. and even if a bullet gets as far as your position the chances of a hit are tiny, after all, how many people were hit by falling bullets during the battle of britain?

 

[ashanta]

I remeber the DZ bouys on this Plymouth range were full of AP bullet holes. As an ex soldier I used to keep well clear on live firing days.

Regards.

Peter.

 

[Talbot]

Do please remember that it is your money that is being wasted if the range is unable to be used. This can be a lot of money if the target is being towed by an aircraft (£3000 an hour at least just for the aircraft and fuel). furthermore , the massive cuts in the number of ships (well below even that recommended by the Strategic Defence Review) and the vast increase in number of deployments means that the opportunities for live practice are few, thus your intrusion into the range may have an impact on the operational efficiency of the ship and increase the subsequent risk to them.

If you dont think that there has been much of a cut, ponder this. The Type 42 is the anti-aircraft destroyer designed primarily to defend the aircraft carrier. The new Type 45 is being introduced to replace it, and should have been in-service 5 years ago thus some of the older Type 42s have been disposed off as they are so old that it is difficult to repair them. there were 12 type 42s, they are being replaced by 6 Type 45s (although they might increase this to 8). Meanwhile numbers of warships are published to include all the minor vessels with minimal offensive capability, thus numbers seem to be adequate - if you actually look at the numbers of frigates and destroyers, it is frightening, and is the direct cause of zero warships being in Portsmouth and Plymouth other than those carrying out maintenance.

 

[alant]

thus your intrusion into the range may have an impact on the operational efficiency of the ship and increase the subsequent risk to them.
___________________________________________________


HMS Cambridge - the range just outside Plymouth does not any longer carry out live firing for the Navy. In fact all current Naval live firings are carried out at sea, never from land out to sea.
Any ships/yachts which enter range during an exercise, simply causes dry firing to be exercised, so no efficiency is lost (simply live rounds saved). An exercise takes about 3 hrs, not the 5 days ranges seem to be booked on coastal sites.
Most land to sea firings, are tanks (eg Lulworth) or small arms (eg Tipner Navy range at Portsmouth).

 

[Guest]

I have been outside the Lulworth range when they were firing. i.e. south of the recommended clearance course.
Bangs could be heard,( no splashes could be seen), but, the ear discomfort ?? pressure waves?? was severe.

 

[hlb]

To answer your question. They can only request you stay out of the range. They cannot demand. It says so on the chart or where ever I read it. Round Plymouth it is a pain, with Battle Ship thingies forever wanting to play war games in the bays. Why they cant piss off out to sea, some place nice and quiet I dont know. Then course there positions are garbled down the radio far to fast to ever write them down, so mostly I just ignor it.

 

[Talbot]

[ QUOTE ]
Any ships/yachts which enter range during an exercise, simply causes dry firing to be exercised, so no efficiency is lost (simply live rounds saved)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is simply untrue! I should know I am a qualified Gunnery Officer with more years experience than I care to think about and have been responsible for gunnery exercise from 6" guns down to pistols. The whole point of the live firings is to exercise the gun's crews and confirm that predicted results are similar to subsequent analyised events. The other parts of the system are indeed exercised in different ways, but simulation only goes so far.

the bigger the gun, the louder the bang, thus lulworth can be a very noisy place, especially when the AS90 guns are playing! /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[alant]

Sorry mate, but my son - a serving navy bod confirmed this is what happens on board his ship should anyone trespass into their firing area.

 

[PapaLazarus]

[ QUOTE ]
Up until recently there was a range just to the NE. of the entrance to Plymouth. If you wanted to travel from there to the Yealm you just went through it as if it wasn't there - presumably on the basis of this right to passage. Or atleast we always did /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I was shooting on that range once on a nice sunny summers day - must have got about 10 shots off all day because the range safety officer kept stopping us due to yet another "bloody bathtub" (his words) in the arc directly behind the ranges.

Got a nice tan though. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[hlb]

Well shooting across a harbour entrance is not the brightest idea!!

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
I was shooting on that range once on a nice sunny summers day - must have got about 10 shots off all day because the range safety officer kept stopping us due to yet another "bloody bathtub"

[/ QUOTE ]
So it was you! I remember crossing that range in sea mist when were heard the firing start. One of our crew said let's fire off a white flare to let them know we are here.

That seemed like a good idea until the mist cleared and we noticed flares were the target.

 

[geoffatstanpit]

Was that the one at Wembury? They used to just shoot over your head (1960s) - you could see the shells whizz over!!

Geoff

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Altcar rifle ranges in Formby face out to sea. Before firing commenced, we had to put out two sentries to watch for boats.

I don't think over 22 years that I shot there we ever even saw a boat in the danger area, which was probably a god job as the sentry job was a prime skive, especially on a sunny day.

I flew into Eskmeals gunnery range in Cumbria once by helicopter. They even called the local fire brigade out, who were most put out when we failed to crash and burn.

Had a pleasent day there doing a recce to see if we could include the place in an exercise I was planning. One of the range officers let slip that the place was used to fire DU munitions, I hastily crossed it off the list

 

[Dipper]

I understand that you can exercise your right to cross the firing range but that it is illegal to loiter. Not sure if loiter is the correct term but you get the drift.

A few years ago I was sailing from Poole to Weymouth with one dead battery so I had switched off my instruments to save the other battery for the engine. The forecast was for a Northerly up to Force 7 with decreasing visibility (it was OK at the time) so I wanted to keep close inshore where it was calmer. At St Alban's Head I was approached by the range boat and they asked me to steer out to sea. I explained the situation and said I intended sailing through the range. They requested I turned on my engine and made speed through the range area. This I did although with the strong winds and relatively flat sea the engine was largely uneccessary.

I wouldn't insist on my 'rights' unless necessary as I have a lot of sympathy for the armed forces and would not want to affect their training adversely just for my convenience.

 

[snowleopard]

Clearing out the attic again?

 

[graham]

You can insist on right of passage but is your time really more precious than somebodies son or daughter trying to get as much training in as possible before going to Iraq or Afghanistan?

As a yachtsman I know how frustrating it can be to detour especially if it means loosing ground downwind But as an ex soldier I know how precious "range time" is.

my unit had some live firing of 66mm anti tank rockets.despite years of dry training initially nearly all of us missed /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gifit was only on the range we learned how to actually hit the targets.