Fear of going over the side!!!!

[AlJones]

Carrying on from the other post of being 'wet side'.

Three years ago I let my Yacht out on a free charter for an ASTO round the Island yacht race. I won't name the skipper as that wouldn't be fair, but a lesson learned to say the least.

The crew, all under twenty five, met at the Marina, I went through a full safety brief, outlining the fact that I have been over the side, and it wasn't a very happy day and that extra care was needed. This was met with these experienced 'sailors' looking at each other with the look of, 'Calm down old man, we know what we're doing'. This peeved me off to say the least. The vessel was cat 2 coded, full safety gear including auto life jackets, with harnesses, and three hook gib lines, and full brand new foulies.

I went home Friday night, after taking the skipper to one side reiterating the fact that they were to have fun, enjoy the race, but safety was paramount. 'Give me a call on Saturday after the race, Right?' This was agreed.

I was pulling my hair out, as I didn't get a call untill 2230hrs!!!!!!! I had left countless messages.

I eventually received my phone call.

'Hi Al, I have some good news and some bad news, what do you want first?'

'Give me the bad'

'I got the crew to put in a reef, but just before they started, the main blew out!' A Pentex race sail, on its last year, but b.ugger!!!
'Then as we were putting in the 2nd reef that blew out iswell!!!'

'Ok, It happen's mate, I'm upset but hey... Whats the good news?'

'I'll come to that, we had a man overboard while gybing with the kite up is well, all ok, recovery went like clock work, dumped the kite, spun round, whilst giving a Mayday, and by the time the mayday was finished being broadcast the man was secured to the boat and was being lifted via the transom'

Once I had found out who it was and the skippers exact actions, log filled out and a report form completed, I asked how the new auto life jacket had been?

Long pause....'He wasn't wearing one Al'

'You f....ing what, In a race, with under 25's aboard, gybing with the kite and your foredeck man wasn't wearing a jacket? And he goes over?' You can imagine how blue the air was.

'How many times must I tell you? It's your Ticket, If that went pear shaped you wouldn't be able to commercially skipper a yacht again, You Pr...k,' I went absolutely beserk!

'I'm not going to have a go about the main, but that man over board, you were a very, very lucky skipper! Right whats the good news?'

The cheeky steward of a bar then said,

' I got an award for excellent seaman ship from the RNLI for my man overboard recovery!'

What could I say?

Thoughts? Comments?

Al Jones /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[jonathankent]

[ QUOTE ]
I got an award for excellent seaman ship from the RNLI for my man overboard recovery!

[/ QUOTE ]
But, did they know the full story behind it? maybe not. I would have thought that wearing life jackets would have been common sense for anyone in conditions as you describe - skipper's instructions or not!

 

[AlJones]

My point exactly, I doubt the full story was given at the prize giving.

How many times must these things be told to 'Flash Harry's', does something always have to happen before they take heed of some one else experience.

I know that this skipper, and probably the crew will remember this. This happened just of Bembridge IOW.

I hope to God that they wear their LJ's always now.

AJ

 

[Ships_Cat]

Here (NZ) slightly less than one person, average, is drowned off a keelboat per year - and here it is very rare to see crew wearing lifejackets on other than small tippy ones (and that applies in other countries I've been, but I haven't spent any time in UK where I get the impression from some posts that everyone wears lifejackets and wet weather gear even sailing in very sheltered waters).

I do not get to know the circumstances of every loss here, but off boats racing would be probably well more than half of all losses. All the losses off race boats (harbour/coastal) I have personally known the details of in our statistics have been off boats under around 28 foot.

I also know of two losses (so the equivalent of 2 years drownings) where a drowned 2 man crew (lost entering port after a race) were both tethered to the boat, both drowned.

I have a friend who in an ocean race went out the back of a transomless race boat as a wave swept them - he was tethered and they got him back on board but as they were doing 15 knots at the time he reckoned that he would have drowned by the time they stopped the boat if he had been wearing an auto inflating lifejacket.

Obviously there are times when it would be foolish not to wear a lifejacket, say for foredeck work on a race boat in heavy seas (although that may prove more for comfort of thought before going over than of use when the boat can't get back to you), but do not think it necessary as a matter of course for harbour racing unless quite severe wind conditions or small tippyish boats. From the statistics the risks are very, very low.

John

 

[AlJones]

Hi Ship Cat

I Have sailied in NZ a few times with my brother who lives in, wait for it,

Wangaporoa, phenetically its said thongaporoa. If you look at Auckland, it's right on the end of the headland off to the west, looking at an old Volcano, and if you look to the east you can see that bloody big tower.

Anyway, they all looked at me strange when I asked about LJ's on a fishing trip!

Warmer water's, I couldn't tell you why. If I was to go wet side again, I'd be happier there than I would here. But I would then be worried about all the Nobby Clarkes in the sea!!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

AJ

 

[Ships_Cat]

Hi AJ

Nobby Clarkes or Noah's Arks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yes, give you that the water 'tis a bit warmer although too cold for me I'm afraid so try to make sure I don't end up init, 'specially down here in Cook Strait area.

Was a crew member lost of a yacht racing here in Welington Harbour a couple of years ago, over the side when hit by boom rounding a mark. Is believed was knocked unconcious and disappeared under in the heavyish conditions before they could get back to him - was found a few days later.

Wellington Harbour is around 5-6 miles in diameter and sometime ago a small MoBo departed from one side and was swamped just offshore from the opposite side. All but one woman were picked up a short time after but they couldn't find this woman. Later in the day, while searches were underway in the area the boat was lost in, she turned up back on the other side of the harbour from whence they had originally departed - she had decided to swim the 5 or so miles back /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

John

 

[ColinHuggins]

Re: Wot, no lifejackets?

I don't know where our colonial friends get their ideas from, but few people can be seen wearing lifejackets in Solent waters, and certainly not while racing. Those who do are either on a new MOBO or fresh out of sailing school.

I don't condone that situation and as skipper ascertain if crew can swim and insist on lifejackets and/or harnesses for all as soon as a reef is pulled down and/or while sailing at night. Personally I wear an oilskin jaket with built-in buoyancy which automatically inflates; it's neither conspicuous nor cumbersome, ideal for that row ashore to the pub.

Did you know that statistically that is when most accidents occur?

 

[jamesjermain]

Am I right in thinking that, in this case it wasn't a question of 'should they or shouldn't they' have been wearing lifejackets and harnesses, but that they had too. RORC regulations compel crew to wear LJs and harnesses in conditions when oilies are worn, after dark and in wind strengths over, is it 17 knots?

They could (should?) have been disqualified...?

 

[Birdseye]

[ QUOTE ]
Here (NZ) slightly less than one person, average, is drowned off a keelboat per year - and here it is very rare to see crew wearing lifejackets on other than small tippy ones (and that applies in other countries I've been, but I haven't spent any time in UK where I get the impression from some posts that everyone wears lifejackets and wet weather gear even sailing in very sheltered waters).



[/ QUOTE ]

dont you believe it. its rare to see many people wearing life jackets in the UK, particularly young racy types. its a macho thing!

most surprising is how few wear lifejackets going in the tender, which is when most accidents occurr.

 

[Ships_Cat]

I was just going by all the comments on these forums about how silly people are not wearing lifejackets all the time and everyone seeming to be of the opinion that they wore them all the time /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Seemed that applied to all boats even on board cruise ships as no one made any distinction re boat size even - just do it.

As you say, tenders are quite different - we always carry them in the tender and wear them if gets choppy (we just carry cheap stuffed ones in that so's no worries about them going walkabout). Virtually all boat type drownings % wise are from undecked boats under 7m.

John

 

[AlJones]

Well, to the upset of some, everyone wears them on my vessels, Ships company rule.

No one is allowed to leave my boat without asking the skip's, and if they do ask, the answer is no anyway. especially whilst at sea!!!!!!!!

This attitude to not wearing a LJ because it decreases the manliness of someone is beyond belief. It does increase survival chances.

The industry has recognised this by the way it produces high newton, small easy to work in harnesses. I think that the pricing structure could be a bit better to make these types more accessible to all.

I'll carry on wearing them and so will all crew aboard our vessels.

AJ

 

[jonathankent]

I agree with your thinking, and I have recently started to wear mine all the time - hadn't used to, but do now.

My point.... why is it though that PBO etc never have pics/photos of anyone wearing a lifejacket. Every month no one ever seems to, even the front cover. Surely this isn't setting a particularly positive viewpoint IMO.

 

[awol]

Where do these statistics come from? "virtually all ... undecked boats under 7m"; "in the tender, which is when most accidents occur"; "...row ashore to the pub. Did you know statistically that's when most accidents occur?"; and of course, my favourite, "most bodies recovered from the sea have their flies undone."

I have no evidence these are NOT true but where is the source and the data? The RYA are questioning the kneejerk reaction of legislation by the MAIB to two fatal incidents last year where alcohol MAY have been a causitive influence and asking for data to back up the MAIB's statements on the number of alcohol related incidents.

So if you have data, please quote it, but don't follow the politician's method of inventing statistics to "prove" your point.

 

[rwoofer]

I'll rise to the bait on this one and say that I almost never wear a lifejacket myself.

It's not because I have a deathwish or anything, it is just that, for me, the balance of risk is something I'm comfortable with. I've grown up with the sea, spending 30 odd years sailing since I was a child and I would still classify sailing is pretty safe. I also kitesurf to an intermediate level and have windsurfed for 18 years - I used to tour coastlines looking for big waves and generally difficult conditions. To my mind these are far more dangerous sports, but still there are lots of people out there who are comfortable with the risk involved in doing these sports, including me.

I do wonder whether I'm too cavalier etc, but ultimately sailing is about freedom, the freedom to make informed decisions and that is what I do. The more people try and thrust their safety standards on me, the more determined I seem to become to go with what I think is appropriate. Which does mean I put on a lifeline when I'm on my own doing a nightwatch and very occasionally I do put a lifejacket on when the motion of the boat becomes so violent that I think the risk of being thrown out has got above the level I'm comfortable with.

Anyone who sails with me is offered lifejackets and harnesses and as the skipper I usually insist they don them before I do, especially if they don't know the sea. However I do sail with other people who are as experienced, if not more so, who also make similar risk calls to myself. Ultimately that is their right of choice, I can't force them.

 

[Guest]

I rarely use one too. No doubt that's bad, but I simply find them uncomfortable. I'm considering buying one without an inegrated harness as I think I'd be more likely to use it (I find the weight of the D-ring pulling causing the lifejacket to chafe on the back of my neck uncomfortable).

I do use a harness regularly - in fact almost all the time as I have one built into my jacket and normally leave an elastic lifeline dangling off it to encourage use.

I also realise that my sense of fear walking around deck is insufficiently developed. I know that an unexpected lurch could send me overboard and that singlehanded, my chances of survival would be close to zero, but I don't really FEEL it.

For that reason every time I go on deck I try to imagine that the water is a 10,000ft vertical drop over a cliff, and try to behave as I would as if suffering from vertigo on the edge of a precipice, bearing in mind that the water is probably even more dangerous than such a precipice would be. This encourages me to proceed with caution, often on hands and knees, always attached to some handhold.

Not a perfect solution perhaps, but an attitude I think more likely to save me than wearing a lifejacket floating in an empty sea.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Sounds like you think I am making it all up?

I have in past threads boiled the data down and posted it. As I said I am talking about my home country NZ and I have the data of ALL drownings and their causes from 1983 to mid 2004. I suspect that boating part of that data is representative of western maritime nations and would think that due to the comparitively high uptake in boating here, probably is a higher exposure to risk here if measured against the whole population than most (population here is a little over 4 millions).

You sound sceptical of what I say but I can assure you that I have represented the data correctly. With respect to the 7m matter, if you wish to question that further you will find that in states that require mandatory wearing of lifejackets that it normally applies in boats up to, typically, 7 m. The risk over that length vessel is very low.

The statistics I have for here actually, though, break the losses down into undecked vessels of under 4 m and over 4 m but it would be rare to find an undecked vessel over 7 m and it is undecked vessels that are the bigger risk.

You may be surprised to learn that in the above around 20 year period there were only 2 recreational drownings from power boats not being undecked and not being jet boats (as you may be aware there are quite a high number of small jet boats here running on braided rivers for pleasure and paid adventure trips on heavy gorge/rapids for tourism). There were actually 3 times as many drownings from small aircraft ditching than there were from decked power boats - that from a much smaller participating population than boating so risk very much higher therefore best get yer lifejacket on if flying in a small plane.

In the same period there were 16 drownings off keelboats so a little less than 2 per annum and less than 3 times the number that drowned from aircraft. I know the circumstances of many of those keelboat drownings in the last 10 years and from that would claim that most are from smaller keelboats (think I mentioned under 28 foot before) and then involved in races.

There were approx 3 times as many homicides where the cause of death was drowning as there were drownings off decked power boats , so about 2/3 the number as drowned off keelboats. So if in fear of being murdered may also pay to don yer lifejacket. More than twice as many died rescuing others than drowned off keelboats so don't rescue anyone unless you have your lifejacket on.

I have added all the figures up across all losses in the past and posted them but is a bit late at night to do so now, but I can assure you that the total drownings off keelboats and decked power boats added together is only a miniscule fraction of all drownings from all causes. In fact drownings from ALL pleasure boats is only a fraction of ALL drownings (I have given it in previous posts and don't recall figure, but is obvious just from inpection of the tabulated data).

Yes, I do know many drownings occur from dinghies and other small open boats and I am not advocating not wearing of jackets in them when appropriate to do so. In the period above 67 drowned from open boats under 4 m length, but putting that risk in context that is only one less (66) than drowned whilst fishing from the shore, so perhaps we should be advocating that shore fishermen wear lifejackets too.

Best get yer lifejacket on when driving yer car or thinking about commiting suicide - big cause of drownings - and so the list goes on and on, but for the last forgit ever goin' for a swim if worried about drowning.

John

 

[jimi]

I wear a lifejacket,simply because I insist the kids do and I won't ask them to do something I don't do myself. We do have the ones with the harnesses built in. I insist we wear them in the dinghy cos often we get back pissed in the dark and that's when accidents happen

 

[Guest]

Yup, I should add that I always wear one in the dinghy

 

[Guest]

and a lifejacket too

 

[AlJones]

Hi rb

No need to sound so apologetic, experience is a great thing, you have a good few years on me!!!!!!!

Your comfort level is just different than mine, that's all.

Some of my Instructors are from the same school as you, they are comfortable without a LJ until they get to their comfort level.

My comfort level is when we let go fore 'n aft. I feel that if people have put their trust in me, than I have a duty of care to them and their families. It's just the way I tick. I'm not saying this is how it should be done, it's just my way. (Not a cue for a song!!)

I don't think anyone has the right to chastise you, the only people that may have a right is the families of the rescue services who in the event of the unforeseen have to come out to you. That's not a dig either. I feel that's part of the buzz for some people, the danger element.

A good friend of mine skipper's his own yacht across oceans, he owns and rides his own race horse, he owns and flies his own aircraft, and drives a Porsche C5Turbo thing, and is scared only off his wife!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When he's on my yacht though he wears a LJ.

I admire the wind surfer's, the kite surfer's, would love to have the confidence, good luck to you.

Regards

AJ /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif