Factory Refurbs

petem

petem

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With the 'new build business' struggling, I wonder if there's an opportunity for builders to offer factory refurbs. Take the Sunseekers here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?443990-quot-cheap-quot-Sunseeker/page2, how much would a factory refurb cost to bring it back into 'near new' and warrantied condition? Scope to include engine overhall, new soft furninhings, revarnish, new nav gear. I know some manufacturers have done this in the past but not in a big way. If its good enough for Aston Martin.....
 
Boats aren't like classic cars. You cant keep them in a garage and in mint condition and watch your investment grow. Boat depreciate and fast. On a small scale take my boat for example. Bought 2nd hand 6 years ago for 50k. Had a full revamp plus engines rebuild 2 years later. Engines alone cost 46k. Total cost of ownership £120k. I bought it at market value at the beginning of this year (£34k) less 15% plus some for canvass and vinyl. Sum I paid £25k. That's your refurb staring you in your face. Massive loss, 4 seasons use out of 6 loss of 100k or 80%. I can't see it working. Only one smiling here is me :encouragement:
 
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I don't understand your maths but the refurb option would need to add value to the boat. what we're seeing at present is some fantastic boats that are becoming virtually worthless when over 10 years old - almost displosable. That can't be right the engines and hulls are good for 20-30 years.
 
I can appreciate.

Bought in 2008 -50k
Refurbed to 2010 - 60k
Additional 2010 -2014 - 10k

Total - 120k

Sold in 2014 - 25k

25/120 = 20% i.e. 80% loss over 4 years use. Or 4 years later the refurb added zero value because it returned to market value.
 
I've looked at some of those predator photos. I don't see a lot worth the cost of refurbishment. The guy has paid ~1.5 million? originally for the boat. Stands to reason, if it was yours, you too would be keeping it mint. These are prestige luxuary boats, not your run of the mill family cruisers. Nobody forks out that kind of money and doesn't take pride in the very elements that put it in that class in the first instance. I would assume that most of these boats are already in as good a condition they can be given their age. Short of re-engining them, what else? But at 300hrs use (first example) is that even worth it?
 
petem said:
I don't understand your maths but the refurb option would need to add value to the boat. what we're seeing at present is some fantastic boats that are becoming virtually worthless when over 10 years old - almost displosable. That can't be right the engines and hulls are good for 20-30 years.
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If you could point me at some ten year old 'disposable' boats I'd be most grateful! I'll take my pick.

I think they're worth less rather than worthless.

Not worth as much as they were pre recession for sure, but arguably today's values are the real ones, rather than 2008 prices being 'correct' and current values depressed.
 
I partly agree with you Ari, but I doubt they can be built for what they are worth, which again might explain the hard times the prestige builders are facing. The very essense of luxuary and prestige is frivolous and over priced. Boats aren't new to that. Car's, perfumes, etc etc etc fall into that bracket. It is also what makes them less desirable 2nd hand. As some have said, if you can afford to run and "keep" it, you could afford new. The question is, how many times can you afford to buy new until the penny drops.
 
Not at all. Mine was originally a Med based boat, hence the need for a refurb. That just brought it in line with what you'd expect of a boat with a rigorous upkeep. However, the cost of the refurb was not inline with the cost of deflation, and as I said, by 4 years any value add provided by the refurb was lost. It only made the boat more attractive to the buyer (me) and sold quickly - (It hadn't even come off the truck transport in the broker's boatyard)
 
petem said:
With the 'new build business' struggling, I wonder if there's an opportunity for builders to offer factory refurbs. Take the Sunseekers here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?443990-quot-cheap-quot-Sunseeker/page2, how much would a factory refurb cost to bring it back into 'near new' and warrantied condition? Scope to include engine overhall, new soft furninhings, revarnish, new nav gear. I know some manufacturers have done this in the past but not in a big way. If its good enough for Aston Martin.....
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I don't get the logic petem. Current macro-problem is there are too few new boat buyers as compared with the expectations/plans of the builders and their cost structures. There is oversupply of new boats and used, relative to the number of buyers. The builders have perhaps misunderstood the shape of the demand curve: as their prices notch up even a bit, the number of us able and wanting to buy them has fallen dramatically. Hence the cash burning results we see at P, S/skr and F for example. Taking used boats and tarting them up with factory warranties will not attract additional buyers into the market and would just cannibalise new build sales, plus for the UK big 3 or 2 their factories are too far from where most of the boats are and adding 50-100k of shipping charges will kill the thing if it ever had life to begin with

There needs to be a fundamental change in the UK big 3 and more widely. A remarkable step change downwards in build costs to get prices lower among smaller boats to start with, and a contraction of supply for the bigger boats. Plus, if you're feeling like King Canute, some action to stop the tide whereby large numbers out of the next generation doesn't even what to buy a big boat

These comments belong in the other thread though so let's not debate them here
 
hmm ,interesting ?
My first ever MB was a factory refurb -a2003 SS Porto 35 bought taken back by SS from Baldricks ( owner Pex up to a 46 )
In 2005 - ie 2 y old - deal one in short time due to Marina hassling me over my berth investment .
It was yealding near 10% .
Until I got an e-mail "when are going to bring your boat Mr ***** to comply with clause xyz of the berthing contract "
Never intended of owning a boat .
Thing is those were good years for the then big 4 in the UK -SS just made it even easier for folks to move up .
Of course it's the diff to change .
It was as Pete infers like new I even met Mr Brathwaite who came over to shake my hand " Thankyou for buying one of my boats " -he then got in his helicopter and flew off .
Fast fwd 10 Y -how different ?
 
petem said:
With the 'new build business' struggling, I wonder if there's an opportunity for builders to offer factory refurbs. .
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Tend to agree with jfm in that there would be a chance of cannibalising new sales as well as diverting resources away from the production line with negative results. The only builders who could make this kind of thing work are the low volume builders who use a high degree of artisanship in their new builds anyway. As you know I bought my Ferretti from the San Lorenzo factory and they had a couple of customer boats in their yard at Ameglia which were being refitted but San Lorenzo is a different kind of operation which is anything but highly industrialised. The other problem with refitting is that the costs can very quickly get out of control which is OK if the boat is a 200ft superyacht and your customer is super rich but refitting say a 10yr old Princess for a customer who has a limited budget could very quickly turn into a financial nightmare for both parties. This kind of thing is best left to experienced boatyards who are used to dealing with one off jobs
 
MapisM said:
LOL, smile while you can, before the next owner will post the same story, saying that he eventually bought the boat for £5k... :D :p
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At 25k the boat IS disposable. I would be happy and smiling in 5 years if I got zero for it. I can take a knock for 5k a year the amount of pleasure it gives me. Nope, real big cheesy grin here :encouragement:
 
Boats.co.uk have just one this on a boat in Cala Dor they sold. They spent about 2 weeks on it ( I don't know the full list of what was done) but looks wise it looked absolutely brand new = it was I think about 7=8 years old. It really did look astonishing.

This was not a "refurb" per se, but it was a bring it back to new and put in ( i think new carpets etc).

Did it make it worth more. Well probably a little bit, but the main thing of course was it sold.

The more knackered it is the bigger the bill. Woodwork, seat covers etc. and the bills mount up.
 
BruceK said:
At 25k the boat IS disposable.
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Can't argue with that.
I was just saying that potentially, the 80% loss never ends.
After all, maybe also for the first owner the pleasure was worth the cost, even if higher in absolute terms, who knows...? :)
 
Deleted User said:
Tend to agree with jfm in that there would be a chance of cannibalising new sales as well as diverting resources away from the production line with negative results. The only builders who could make this kind of thing work are the low volume builders who use a high degree of artisanship in their new builds anyway. As you know I bought my Ferretti from the San Lorenzo factory and they had a couple of customer boats in their yard at Ameglia which were being refitted but San Lorenzo is a different kind of operation which is anything but highly industrialised. The other problem with refitting is that the costs can very quickly get out of control which is OK if the boat is a 200ft superyacht and your customer is super rich but refitting say a 10yr old Princess for a customer who has a limited budget could very quickly turn into a financial nightmare for both parties. This kind of thing is best left to experienced boatyards who are used to dealing with one off jobs
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I would say the Oppersite Mike --- think about it
You normally churn out 150 upwards boats /pa with over 1000 staff .
You have a shed full of soft stuff ,fender, warps ,cushions, carpet ,bed spreads, Royal Doulton plates + cutlery , fire extinguisher . Towels + polo shirts logo,d . And anything else not screwed down on a "new" boat .
You also have a in house trimming team knocking out beige leather uphosltry for 12-15 - boats per month .
You also have a dedicated finishing shead where boats after being floated ( ck for weeps -leaks ) / finished on the water are lifted and antifouled / polished ready for final sign off .
So tarting up a used boat for re- sale ie refinishing should be a doddle.
If its really busy the Forman hires East Europeans on short term contracts ex union .
 
Portofino said:
I would say the Oppersite Mike --- think about it

You have a shed full of soft stuff ,fender, warps ,cushions, carpet ,bed spreads, Royal Doulton plates + cutlery , fire extinguisher . Towels + polo shirts logo,d . .
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How's that a refurb? Pick that up with an online purchase and 3 week delivery. If a fool thinks that is a refurb, then I'd say such monies have long departed the fool. Refurb would be engines, electric, electronics, structural and anybody who has done a resto job will be quick to tell you, for christsakes dont tell my wife what I spent. Usually 2.5x market value. Again, not restricted to boats.
 
Of couse engines serviced etc -everything ck,d over working -but it looks like new ex factory .
Point I was making with 1000 blokes £millions of stock ,anchor chain for example ,it's not like they have to order any .
A bloke just cuts off 50 M off the last 1000 M batch del every week and fits it -easy peasy -along with new anchor
See bottom of this pic new upholstery ready -SS finishing shed couple of refurbs being done .
null_zpsfliscpue.jpg

New ? Or 2Y in the Med ? -you call it below
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Bruce K -what would describe the above as ?
 
Is suppose there is cosmetically looking like new, everything working and anything clearly out of date replaced ( old TVs, Nav Kit etc), knackered bits ( carpet) type refurbs so that to the naked eye it seems new and deeper mechanical refurbs.

In my view the former is realistic. The latter in terms of re-engining and so on means that in many ( but not all I accept) the thing is towards the end of its useful life as the numbers will never come close to squaring, and you are better off looking for a newer boat with the difference in cost.

If you look at the Sunseeker on the other thread it has not really aged that much, so once visually immaculate, up to date TVs and so on there is not that much to separate it from its newer counterparts - other than low price, lower depreciation and most likely higher running costs.
 
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