F36

Moose

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Hi,
Now I can understand that you are proberbly getting very annoyed with me asking endless questions about all things sealine! And you definitely don't want me to ask another. BUT I AM GOING TO ANYWAY!
I have extended my range of boats from the F33 to the F36 and I have found an absoulutly brilliant one, hardly ever been used e.t.c It has KAMD 44 EDC (I have heard bad things about them) should I be worried?
Is there anything I should look out for? (apart from a volley of verbal abuse sent by who lot at me for asking another question!)
Comment's much appriciated
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Moose on Sun Nov 25 20:38:41 2001 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
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Yes they can be bad news, ask Kim H about there's one year, could cost a fortune in the longrun, better buy something with slower revving diesels in like my Princess 388.
 
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don't worry about asking a zillion questions Moose. There is no limit or ration. For myself I know sod all about f36 or 44edc engines. Praps worth finindg out who did the maintenance and which agent they used and having a good chinwag with them -you're a potential customer.
 

kimhollamby

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No problems on the number of questions, but you might want to use the search tool in this particular case (try F36 and perhaps Sealine) as there's been a lot of previous comment on this model, some of which I was involved with.

Took an F36 right around Britain in 1999 and logged over 700 hours on the boat (with 44 series diesels) in 99/2000 so can certainly help you with feedback. Worth you taking a look at it, certainly, but service record on the 44s important. In particular, valves must be adjusted every 200 hours.
 

hlb

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Thing is. If you've spent thousands devloping the engine and its good stick it in a truck. Then your going to sell thousands of them. But if its crap put it in a boat and spend a couple of grand to market it. Cos they dont know the difference.
So if yer Eddie Stoppard or what ever. You know the diffence
its not a one off cos yuv ad undreds. But boat owner. First one and only one so, zillions of pounds per spare part.
Unfortunatly we all should be worried cos nearly all boats got Volvo engines and all very much crap. So theres not allot of comparison, its only crap versus more crap or worse crap.
Now if we could have a Gardener or Cummins much more in the equasion or maybe a Cat or one of those Jap Jobs.
Then we could have a discusion, but untill then!!
It's just Volvo crap or Volvo crap. Same co darnt put crap in a truck. Nuff said.

Haydn
 

kimhollamby

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Not very helpful Haydn and not terribly well informed. Everyone loves the idea of a Gardner; these days few seem inclined to buy the kind of boats that have space for them or the like.

For the record, 30 and 40 series Volvo Penta diesel was designed for marine use first; very few of them have found their way into straight automotive use. Certainly not the 44-series, which is marine only.

We all have reasons to want to moan about Volvo Penta but I wonder where the performance motorboat market might be in Europe without them?
 

hlb

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Ok Kim. We'dbe all back to rags and sticks I suppose!!
No we would'nt. We'd have a healthy economy.
Volvo have pushed the boat out far to far and angered to many customers. I'm one of them. They've done and got away with the marketing job for far to long. Hey I did it for long enough. But I know when my name is numbered!!

Kim its not rocket science. No car or truck go's on the market these days suffering from cylinder head defects that show up in a few thousand miles. Its just not on, The dog watch programs would make a meal of them in no time.
Ok put a warning on them. GO'S LIKE STINK BUT F***ED after 10-100-1000 miles. Quote from Volvo " You Mean The Gear box lasted 600 hours!!" I rest my case.

Haydn
 

kimhollamby

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Agree that there is sometimes an unacceptable contradictory dual line employed ie "it failed because it was only used a few hours each year" (actually rather more valid in my book) and "whoa, you mean you actually use your engines!"

Of relevance to this thread was the fact that we had one 44-series diesel drop a valve after 600 hours on our F36 for the following reasons:

a) valves should be checked every 200 hours on that model and they weren't on two relevant services by authorised service agents;

b) contributory factor was the poor design of the engine that means it is a long-winded job to get the rocker cover off.

Interesting point; outside of the Volvo test fleet out boat was probably the first one to clock such high hours on the 44 so we were the first to uncover the fact that many 44s (not just ours) were not being serviced correctly (ironically saving may of their owners about a day's labour in the short term). A big flurry of people checking afterwards that also unearthed the fact that the main service agents for other engine manufacturers had, in some cases, also been found to be under-servicing diesels.
 

hlb

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Kim I use my boat a lot more than most. Mechanics blame me for using it to much. Yet. I've had trucks which have done 400'000 miles. With no more than a fan belt, a clutch plate, and reline the brakes. All normal wearing parts. But I've spent more in re geaboxing and drive chains in Volvo boat engines than in my entire history in, transport, Factory, 24 hour use and domestic. I'm still getting excelent use out of gearboxes from 1964 without service or oil change. Except maybe once every five years or so.
I've had four Volvo gear boxes break. There is no good excuss. Ive had trucks and driven them To Saudi Arabia and back. 25 times. Through Desert, snowdrifts, minnus 30dg and though 130dg. all with no problem. Volvo gear boxes.Well were only asking them to go round, were not asking them to go up the Kiber pass or run through 16 gear changes a minute. Just clunck in gear once a month or so and go round
for an hour or two or maybe three.

If I've got a problem, and its been said I have. I actualy use a boat. All the mechanics go horror, horror. Errm It was'nt
meant to be used??

Haydn
 

ccscott49

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Kim, its a well known fact that you do not drop valves, because the valve settings/clearances are wrong, they may be noisy or you may lose power due to poor valve timing, or even get blow by, but you do not drop valves. I have been working on boat diesels for some time, have you noticed where they put things like raw water pumps etc, have you tried to change some of them when they are installed in the boat, I have and its often a nightmare. Volvos are in particular a bastard to work on. We should get some of the guys who still work on these beasts to have a say, but they daren't they would probably lose there jobs or lose the franchise etc. As far as the engine manufacturers go, we are easy meat, where do we go? Nobody listenens to us, we have too much money anyway and are all idiots who dont know one end of a spanner from another. Try ford engines, not as powerfiul as some of the larger volvos, but they are well proven and you can buy parts in a chemist!
 

ChrisP

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Without Volvo we'd all be using Sabre's or Nanini's or something similar based on a real engine. Oh and as a side line we'd all be saving a fortune on parts and servicing.
 

oldgit

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Re:comment boats Vs cars

A certain manufacturer the name of which may or may not begin with a "V " has had big big problems with diesel cylinder heads in some of its cars/small vans.this was a major problem for years.No one outside the trade seems to be aware of it.
 

jfm

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Volvo 44 series etc, look at the facts

Kim: I'm with ccscott on the valves. The only thing that makes a valve drop in any normal circumstances is an ineffective return spring. If you were not over-revving it then a spring that cannot close the valve fast enuf = a design/manuf fault. Normally springs should last the life of an engine, say 250,000 miles plus in road terms. If the clearances are badly out then I spose you could get a funny vibration that would accelerate valve spring problems, but there's no way that should happen at 200 hours (7000 miles in auto terms) in an engine without design defects. So the problem in MBM's F36 looks like a big Volvo design/engineering problem to me.

You say "For the record, 30 and 40 series Volvo Penta diesel was designed for marine use first; very few of them have found their way into straight automotive use. Certainly not the 44-series, which is marine only." But are you sure Kim? I mean, they would say that wouldn't they? I think this is just Volvo-spin for an engine that was so badly designed that they dare not sell it in quantities to road hauliers, so they just sell into the marine market. Why on earth would Volvo ever make engines this size with the express intention of NOT selling to road hauliers, when there's no sensible reason why a good engine can't work well in both marine and road use? You can be pretty sure that any engine that needs valve clearances fixing at 7000 miles will be a marketing disaster with the road haulage industry and that's why Volvo decided to keep the 44 in boats only I think.
 
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Kim, I have to side with Hadyn on this one. Your 44's may have the highest working hours in the UK but in general terms 600 hrs is bugger all. My business experience is with construction machines working say 1500-2000 hrs per year often under extreme load and temp conditions; many of the engines fitted in construction machines eg Cat, Cummins are a slightly different version of engines you might find in a boat and yet the manufacturers offer unlimited 3 year warranties. In other words the engines are expected to operate 4500-6000 hrs under warranty and, given regular maintenance, you would'nt expect any major problems in the first 8000hrs.
Could you say the same thing about a Volvo marine engine? I think not.
You know and I know that Volvo and others push the performance envelope of their diesel engines to the absolute limit in a quest for maximum possible power from the lightest and most compact engine; the boat manufacturers collude in this because all they're looking for is a max speed that looks good in brochures and test reports.
Take the KAD44 as an example. Supercharger and Turbocharger. 260hp from a 3.6lit (?) capacity engine; thats close to petrol engine performance.
And who is the loser in all this? Not the engine manufacturer because most boats operate so few hours and a 3yr warranty is likely only to have to cover 300 operating hours; not the boat builder because he can shoe horn ever more powerful engines into his boat and use it as a marketing tool; not the first owner because he's likely to sell on after a few years. The real loser is the poor sod who buys these boats secondhand and who's going to be wondering why his engines need a major overhaul after only a few hundred hours. Oh and then he'll be shafted again with extortinate parts prices and dealer labour costs.
 

david_bagshaw

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Re: Volvo 44 series etc, look at the facts

I always thought too large a valve clearance led to the valve closing at a faster rate as its follower falls off the cam top/ side as opposed to a progressive rate closure, leading to excess stresses on the stem and collett. Which is where the valve then fails

Afterall I seem to remember the valve clearances on the Magazine boat were about or over double the correct clearance.

Perhaps Kim could comment.



David
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KevB

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Kim

After your magazine has interviewed MDL's MD can we have someone from Volvo, lets see what their answers will be to questions regarding their extortionate spares costs and dire reliability problems.
 

jfm

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Re: Volvo 44 series etc, look at the facts

David, you may be right, I can't remeber the MBM article and whether it was a broken valve stem or a piston-valvehead impact that occurred. I agree with you that too large a valve clearance increases stress in the valve stem. But however you look at it, 200 hours is a very short nterval
 

kimhollamby

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Mike, you are right on the nail...but boatbuilders and engine builders are not building product for the next owner, only the first one, so should we be surprised?

If you want truck reliability, take the fishing boat example...low stressed diesel, run every day on regular load cycles. If you want worst reliability take a Class 1 Powerboat that needs its engines and gearboxes rebuilt every race, if they last that long. Everything else lies in between. Modern fast boats are forever pushing towards the latter and also have ther problem that they are lying unused for much of the time. Volvo Penta may have thrown up their fair share of faults but they are not the only engine manufacturer to push the envelope and, in some cases, to pass on the legacy of that to second and third generation owners as a result.

Your construction machinery is much lower rated against capacity, which is the key.

For example, how many owners actually stick to the one hour in 12 WOT rating for 40-series diesels? Bet not many do. On construction machinery and trucks, the engines are governed in such a way that the ability to boost power in this way is not in the hands of the driver.

There is one answer of course...insist that all ratings are based on permanent WOT capability; at this stage I feel a European Directive coming on! Eg a Volvo Penta 41, commonly called 200hp, in fact only 192hp at the flywheel, would in fact have to be marketed as, at a guess, about 170hp.

There's an easy solution...buy a boat with a belts and braces engine in an engineroom that eats into the accommodation but allows first rate servicing and then enjoy an installation that lasts forever but goes at displacement speeds. As a new owner you could sell such a craft on with a pure soul. However, it seems fewer people want to do that these days. Even the more traditional end of the motorboat market seems to be on steroids now, not always with great consequences in my opinion.
 

sonarbell

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Re:comment boats Vs cars

Yes, I know to my cost, had to have one replaced at 45,000 miles, even tho head was replaced free of charge, it still cost me £700 in labour !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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