? EU Residency After The End Of The Transition Period (31/12/20)❓

[nortada]

The UK permits dual residency but how many other EU countries permit dual or multi residency

With cruisers in mind, the more residencies they can hold the greater freedom of movement they will have.

Another thought, when the UK completely leaves the EU, getting residency in an EU country will probably get a whole lot more difficult but what if you already have EU residency somewhere, as an EU resident, how easy will it be to get residency in another EU state

If necessary, if they wished it, a cruiser could then renounce their first residency.

After 5 years temporary residency, rather than convert to a 10 year permanent residency, before it expires, as an EU resident, will it be possible to get another temporary residency in another EU state - grandfather rights and all that

Loads of room to speculate and I am sure other, more agile minds than mine, can think up other possible options and debate (argue about?) them

Given my age and circumstances none of this is likely to affect me but my thinking is underpinned by the belief that, whilst the politicians of the EU/UK will wish engage in battle and be seen to screw each other, at a practical level the common man will be looking for an easy life and countries will be looking to sustain/increase their (tourist) economy so a easy relaxed relationship would be a win-win situation.

What does the team think

 

[jordanbasset]

I hope Tony Cross doesn't mind me quoting his post here, I do so as it is one of the best posts I have seen on the subject and very relevant to this thread

Yes, that's absolutely correct.

My concern from reading a lot of posts on this and similar threads is that there seems to be an impression that cruisers can register in Greece, and possibly a couple of other countries too, and that this will allow them to continue cruising between those countries after Dec 2020 without having to worry about the 90/180 day rule.

My perceived negativity on this is simply a desire to caution that it may well not be that simple.

When your register as an EU citizen in another EU country (and get the buff card) all you're declaring is that you will spend more than 90 days in that country. This is not the same as being granted residence in that country because a) EU citizens have a right of residence in any EU country in any case and b) you're only declaring that you're going to live in that country for more than 90 days - not permanently.

My caution is that exchanging the buff (more than 90 days) EU card for a permanent biometric residence card may well not be a simple swap. Since UK citizens will then not be EU citizens there will be no 'right of residence', so obtaining a biometric residence card may well require actual proof of residence. Those of us who are already permanently resident in Greece have nothing to worry about of course, because it's easy for us to demonstrate that we permanently reside here. My reason for banging on about this is that I fear that cruisers who do not permanently reside in Greece, or who cannot provide whatever documents the Greeks require to prove that they really are resident here, may have difficulty exchanging the simple buff registration card form the more specific permanent resident (biometric) card. Residence is a way of life, not a convenience.

Although you're quite right that we don't have any firm details of what comes next I would suggest that cruisers would do well to do whatever they can to prove residence in at least one EU country. A couple of consecutive annual marina contracts would probably be good enough, but residence anywhere requires a commitment to live long-term in that country, it's not simply a case of obtaining the buff card.

 

[grumpygit]

The UK permits dual residency but how many other EU countries permit dual or multi residency

With cruisers in mind, the more residencies they can hold the greater freedom of movement they will have.

Another thought, when the UK completely leaves the EU, getting residency in an EU country will probably get a whole lot more difficult but what if you already have EU residency somewhere, as an EU resident, how easy will it be to get residency in another EU state

If necessary, if they wished it, a cruiser could then renounce their first residency.

After 5 years temporary residency, rather than convert to a 10 year permanent residency, before it expires, as an EU resident, will it be possible to get another temporary residency in another EU state - grandfather rights and all that

Loads of room to speculate and I am sure other, more agile minds than mine, can think up other possible options and debate (argue about?) them‼

Given my age and circumstances none of this is likely to affect me but my thinking is underpinned by the belief that, whilst the politicians of the EU/UK will wish engage in battle and be seen to screw each other, at a practical level the common man will be looking for an easy life and countries will be looking to sustain/increase their (tourist) economy so a easy relaxed relationship would be a win-win situation.

What does the team think

I've lifted my already posted thread off Vic's Greek Residency because it's probably quite poignant to all

This extract is from the Greek Reporter.

"Legislation called “4652/2020” regulates matters relating to access to work, social security and medical and hospital coverage, recognition of professional and academic qualifications and the use of driving licenses issued by the United Kingdom, as well as the ability to remain, to study and work in the country as before.

In brief, all British citizens who came to Greece before Brexit, will be able to enjoy the same rights as all other EU citizens according to this legislation."

Which leads on to a more general question along the lines of Nortada's topic

As a British passport holder post Brexit and you hold residence in one EU country can you travel to other EU states for extended periods?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The right to residency is an EU rule, one EU citizen can reside in another EU country subject to the FoM rules surrounding access to the social services of that country, and the ability to sustain oneself without recourse to social security for a period of time (I think 3-6 months) - an EU citizen cannot be refused residency in another EU country for any other reason other than criminal activity (I seem to recall). this means that currently a UK citizen seeking residency in Portugal or Spain is a very simple process - it's not even really immigration due to EU FoM rules.

A 3rd country citizen has a much more complicated set of hoops to jump through and they are country dependent - the decision to allow residency in an EU country to a non-EU national resides with that country alone, and is subject to its immigration policy, it has no EU involvement. The reason Brits want residency is because residency of an EU country grants the ability to stop the 90/180 Schengen clock by returning to your EU country of residence - this is very useful if you spend your time primarily in one EU country but travel frequently to others.

As Tony Cross said, residency for non-EU citizens is much more involved because it is not being granted under EU FoM rules, and it is governed by the non-EU immigration laws of the country concerned instead.

In Germany, as an EU citizen, I went to my local authority and registered my details and address, I registered with the tax office, I arranged healthcare and that was it. I got no card or piece of paper (like a buff EU card in Greece) to say I'm resident in Germany because Germany decided I didn't need one as a citizen of another EU country (British) - and I could (before Brexit) stay as long as I like once I've worked past the time limit to access social security - but only as a citizen of an EU country. (Instead of residency, I obtained German citizenship to make my FoM problems go away.)

My American friend has a totally different scenario - she has a card, an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" and a biometric ID card - there are 3 valid reasons required for a 3rd country citizen to be granted residency in Germany, work, study or family reunification - she's got work. I couldn't even obtain the documentation my American friend has in preparation for Brexit, and when I enquired, I was told application isn't possible because I'm an EU citizen.

As a reason for residency, "I'm a tourist and want to get past the 90/180 rule" will not work in Germany - probably not in any EU country - Think about it, if it was that easy then Americans, Australians, New Zealanders would all be hopping from country to country in the Med swapping residency at will - there would be pages on noonsite with info on each country and how to do it - but there isn't. You can only do that as an EU citizen, which UK citizens currently are, under the withdrawal agreement, until the 31.12.2020.

Getting residency today is simple - so anyone with the means to obtain residency should get their foot in the door, in their country of choice, before the end of this year - get your residency now while your home country is still an EU member!!!

After 31.12.2020, Self supporting retirees with healthcare might get you residency, and will probably be easier in places like Spain/Portugal because they are well known retirement destinations for Brits, but the rules will change - EU FoM will no longer apply and Brits will not get automatic and simple application for residency - Brits will become non-EU citizens - just like Americans, Australinas, Japanese, Chinese, New Zealanders, Canadians etc.

UK citizens will swap from the EU FoM rules governing residency applications to the non-EU, country specific, immigration rules governing residency applications in every EU country on 01.01.2021 - unless a miracle happens.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I've lifted my already posted thread off Vic's Greek Residency because it's probably quite poignant to all

This extract is from the Greek Reporter.

"Legislation called “4652/2020” regulates matters relating to access to work, social security and medical and hospital coverage, recognition of professional and academic qualifications and the use of driving licenses issued by the United Kingdom, as well as the ability to remain, to study and work in the country as before.

In brief, all British citizens who came to Greece before Brexit, will be able to enjoy the same rights as all other EU citizens according to this legislation."

Just as a clarification ...

I'm pretty certain the "EU rights" are only in Greece - and it doesn't grant EU FoM rights to further travel in the Schengen area. Is this your understanding too?

AFAIK EU FoM in other EU countries cannot be granted by residency, it is governed by citizenship.

This is because residency can be bestowed on any non-EU citizen by a single EU country alone without any legal responsibility for the person (e.g. extradition, access to consulates etc.)

A single EU country can grant a non-EU citizen EU FoM rights by granting them citizenship.

 

[Graham376]

Another thought, when the UK completely leaves the EU, getting residency in an EU country will probably get a whole lot more difficult but what if you already have EU residency somewhere, as an EU resident, how easy will it be to get residency in another EU state

If necessary, if they wished it, a cruiser could then renounce their first residency.

I think the chances of being able to move around and obtain residency elsewhere are as likely as rocking horse sh*t. We will be third country citizens with all the rules they have to follow.

 

[Birdseye]

I've lifted my already posted thread off Vic's Greek Residency because it's probably quite poignant to all

This extract is from the Greek Reporter.

"Legislation called “4652/2020” regulates matters relating to access to work, social security and medical and hospital coverage, recognition of professional and academic qualifications and the use of driving licenses issued by the United Kingdom, as well as the ability to remain, to study and work in the country as before.

In brief, all British citizens who came to Greece before Brexit, will be able to enjoy the same rights as all other EU citizens according to this legislation."

Which leads on to a more general question along the lines of Nortada's topic

As a British passport holder post Brexit and you hold residence in one EU country can you travel to other EU states for extended periods?

I once went to a CA symposium on cruising the med and the speaker there, who had lived in Greece for donkeys, made the comment about Greek regs that the one thing that characterised the Greek officiaL reaction was vindictiveness. Timeo danaos et dona ferentes!

 

[Tony Cross]

The UK permits dual residency but how many other EU countries permit dual or multi residency

With cruisers in mind, the more residencies they can hold the greater freedom of movement they will have.

Another thought, when the UK completely leaves the EU, getting residency in an EU country will probably get a whole lot more difficult but what if you already have EU residency somewhere, as an EU resident, how easy will it be to get residency in another EU state

If necessary, if they wished it, a cruiser could then renounce their first residency.

After 5 years temporary residency, rather than convert to a 10 year permanent residency, before it expires, as an EU resident, will it be possible to get another temporary residency in another EU state - grandfather rights and all that

Loads of room to speculate and I am sure other, more agile minds than mine, can think up other possible options and debate (argue about?) them‼

Given my age and circumstances none of this is likely to affect me but my thinking is underpinned by the belief that, whilst the politicians of the EU/UK will wish engage in battle and be seen to screw each other, at a practical level the common man will be looking for an easy life and countries will be looking to sustain/increase their (tourist) economy so a easy relaxed relationship would be a win-win situation.

What does the team think

There are two aspects to being resident in a country. One is to apply for and obtain the necessary authority to reside long term in that country. The other is to actually reside there long term. In general terms, you have to live in a country to be considered resident there.

I believe that all countries specify a maximum number of months or years that you can live outside the country and yet remain resident there. That being the case, there is no reason why someone could not be considered to be resident in more than one country, as long as they spent long enough living in each country to retain their resident status in each one.

There may of course be tax implications if one is resident in more than one country and in the absence of a dual taxation agreement between all those countries that could prove expensive. Even with a dual taxation agreement your tax affairs are likely to be complicated, especially if you have income and taxable assets in each country.

 

[nortada]

I hope Tony Cross doesn't mind me quoting his post here, I do so as it is one of the best posts I have seen on the subject and very relevant to this thread

It was Tony's post that got me thinking.

Rather than restrict these discusion to Greece open them up to across the whole EU and that is what prompted this thread.

 

[grumpygit]

Just as a clarification ...

I'm pretty certain the "EU rights" are only in Greece - and it doesn't grant EU FoM rights to further travel in the Schengen area. Is this your understanding too?

AFAIK EU FoM in other EU countries cannot be granted by residency, it is governed by citizenship.

This is because residency can be bestowed on any non-EU citizen by a single EU country alone without any legal responsibility for the person (e.g. extradition, access to consulates etc.)

A single EU country can grant a non-EU citizen EU FoM rights by granting them citizenship.

To be honest it is a question rather than an understanding. If I remember rightly and if this bears any relation to this discussion that if a third country visa is issued in any EU country gives rights to travel other member states for a set period of time of that visa. Does anyone have any further info on this?

 

[st599]

There are two aspects to being resident in a country. One is to apply for and obtain the necessary authority to reside long term in that country. The other is to actually reside there long term. In general terms, you have to live in a country to be considered resident there.

I believe that all countries specify a maximum number of months or years that you can live outside the country and yet remain resident there. That being the case, there is no reason why someone could not be considered to be resident in more than one country, as long as they spent long enough living in each country to retain their resident status in each one.

There may of course be tax implications if one is resident in more than one country and in the absence of a dual taxation agreement between all those countries that could prove expensive. Even with a dual taxation agreement your tax affairs are likely to be complicated, especially if you have income and taxable assets in each country.

Quite a few require you to be resident for more than 183 days per year, which means that dual residency between 2 such countries is impossible.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

To be honest it is a question rather than an understanding. If I remember rightly and if this bears any relation to this discussion that if a third country visa is issued in any EU country gives rights to travel other member states for a set period of time of that visa. Does anyone have any further info on this?

Yes, answers are here ...

https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/files/frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

Question 15

I have a valid long stay visa/residence permit for a country that is part of the Schengen area. Do I need another visa to travel to other Schengen states?

No. A long stay visa or a residence permit issued by a Schengen State allows you to travel or stay in other Schengen States, while respecting the maximum duration of a “short stay” (a stay of "90 days in any 180 day period").

 

[RAI]

Having residence in a country usually means that all motorised forms of transport have to be registered in that country. Similar rules for radio transmitters other than civil band.
I got caught in Belgium for driving my German registered car there. German law required me to register it in Germany. So did Belgium law for Belgium. So although neither Germany nor Belgium objected to my dual residence, there are snags.
Tax is another one. While working the UK and Germany were happy to let my income tax to be collected by Belgium, under the double tax agreements. But having retired, they both wanted tax on my pensions, rental income, etc.. which are not classed as income tax. Inheritance tax has its complexities too.
So along with driving licences and health care, getting residence has consequences beyond just applying for residence.
The UK Gov. Has very useful advice on its web sites about residence elsewhere.

 

[nortada]

First contact with the enemy usually defeats most pre-laid plans.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. From experience, whilst Brussels think they are in command, individual nations often have another view.

As said before, I have the luxury of being a voyer rather than a player.

Moreover, not aspiring to citizenship (dyslexics cannot pass the language exams), I lower my sights to nothing above continued residency (in Portugal). I also avoid the use of nationality because in my understanding it is a bit like domicilaty, something you are born with and very difficult, if not impossible to change.

 

[grumpygit]

Having residence in a country usually means that all motorised forms of transport have to be registered in that country. Similar rules for radio transmitters other than civil band.
I got caught in Belgium for driving my German registered car there. German law required me to register it in Germany. So did Belgium law for Belgium. So although neither Germany nor Belgium objected to my dual residence, there are snags.
Tax is another one. While working the UK and Germany were happy to let my income tax to be collected by Belgium, under the double tax agreements. But having retired, they both wanted tax on my pensions, rental income, etc.. which are not classed as income tax. Inheritance tax has its complexities too.
So along with driving licences and health care, getting residence has consequences beyond just applying for residence.
The UK Gov. Has very useful advice on its web sites about residence elsewhere.

All probably correct but can you please explain this statement in a little more depth " But having retired, they both wanted tax on my pensions, rental income, etc.. which are not classed as income tax"

 

[RAI]

All probably correct but can you please explain this statement in a little more depth " But having retired, they both wanted tax on my pensions, rental income, etc.. which are not classed as income tax"

I get state and company pensions from three EU countries. Income tax I paid to only the one where I worked, but tax on my pensions I pay to each state that provides it.

 

[Graham376]

So along with driving licences and health care, getting residence has consequences beyond just applying for residence.
The UK Gov. Has very useful advice on its web sites about residence elsewhere.

All depends on the country. For us retired folks, Portugal allows us to pay tax in UK and includes us free of charge in the health system. OK so we can't drive our UK cars here and to matriculate them is a very expensive solution so most don't bother. Driving licenses require a medical and aren't a direct replacement for UK ones as some groups are missing. No need to matriculate boats either, unlike Spain.

 

[Koeketiene]

I get state and company pensions from three EU countries. Income tax I paid to only the one where I worked, but tax on my pensions I pay to each state that provides it.

Very much the same for me.

 

[RAI]

All depends on the country. For us retired folks, Portugal allows us to pay tax in UK and includes us free of charge in the health system. OK so we can't drive our UK cars here and to matriculate them is a very expensive solution so most don't bother. Driving licenses require a medical and aren't a direct replacement for UK ones as some groups are missing. No need to matriculate boats either, unlike Spain.

I gather that tax break for pensioners in Portugal lasts 10 years and is in debate in parliament, but Portugal is very UK pensioner friendly.

 

[Graham376]

I gather that tax break for pensioners in Portugal lasts 10 years and is in debate in parliament, but Portugal is very UK pensioner friendly.

The 10 years is if one emigrates and cuts ties with UK.

For us "casual" residents, we just get residence and nothing else changes as long as we don't have any income here. In effect, it's just like a never ending holiday