EU commission rules on pleasure craft

[Sea Devil]

Been doing some checking up and have cut and pasted the results on one of my web pages. It is direct from EU commission web sites so pretty accurate I think

http://www.michaelbriant.com/spain_boat_rules.htm

 

[GHA]

Been doing some checking up and have cut and pasted the results on one of my web pages. It is direct from EU commission web sites so pretty accurate I think

http://www.michaelbriant.com/spain_boat_rules.htm

Thanks for the info :encouragement:

 

[Cathy*]

I've been discussing the Odeo electronic flares recently and have been told that France regulations require me to carry regular flares.

RYA advice is " If you are cruising the waters of another country, under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, that country is quite within its rights to ask you to comply with its applicable legislation, rules and regulations. This may include, for example, requiring the skipper to prove his or her competence for that role; carriage of local publications or regulations is also often stipulated. "

Your info states " No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered."

Where is the best place to find a definitive answer?

 

[De.windhoos]

I've been discussing the Odeo electronic flares recently and have been told that France regulations require me to carry regular flares.

RYA advice is " If you are cruising the waters of another country, under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, that country is quite within its rights to ask you to comply with its applicable legislation, rules and regulations. This may include, for example, requiring the skipper to prove his or her competence for that role; carriage of local publications or regulations is also often stipulated. "

Your info states " No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered."

Where is the best place to find a definitive answer?

It's a grey area where the interpretation by the local authority is, unfortunately, key. Because, even if you are right, it's very difficult to fight a local port authority/coastguard/custom officer and win :-(
Even if you have the relevant official documents printed, they will just ignore them 9 out of 10 times.

 

[Cathy*]

It's a grey area where the interpretation by the local authority is, unfortunately, key. Because, even if you are right, it's very difficult to fight a local port authority/coastguard/custom officer and win :-(
Even if you have the relevant official documents printed, they will just ignore them 9 out of 10 times.

OK ta. Best just to buy flares when we're ready to travel then.

 

[Mistroma]

It's a grey area where the interpretation by the local authority is, unfortunately, key. Because, even if you are right, it's very difficult to fight a local port authority/coastguard/custom officer and win :-(
Even if you have the relevant official documents printed, they will just ignore them 9 out of 10 times.

Good of OP to dig out the information and include links for source material. I didn't spot a link for the source of the "No foreign country can dictate ...." part.

My understanding was that this wasn't a grey area at all, so it would be useful to know the source.

Whenever it comes up someone quotes "innocent passage" and that can be a reason to avoid falling under local rules. However, that is usually clarified when another person explains "innocent passage" and it only applies if you are simply transiting through territorial waters. Don't even think about anchoring for a few days or visiting a harbour and claiming "innocent passage".

I thought that countries were pretty much free to enforce their own laws within their own borders.

Of course it doesn't really matter at the end of the day as you correctly point out. Any local authority is in a much stronger position than a visiting sailor and usually wins. Not always though, I did manage to dodge a fine from the Carabinieri when they claimed my insurance documents were incorrect. They wouldn't hand them back to let me highlight their error. We talked them through our copies until they understood we were correct. Strangely enough, the part they couldn't find was written in Italian. Very grumpy about not fining us and continued round the bay to visit other yachts. I believe that they tried the same thing on another UK boat at the other side of the bay.

 

[De.windhoos]

OK ta. Best just to buy flares when we're ready to travel then.

BTW, although LED flares are pretty cool and work great at night and don't expire, they have 1 big downside. They don't produce the orange smoke like the old fashioned ones. During daytime that smoke is easily visible.

Oh and old fashioned flares are pretty cheap. But he, I'm Dutch so I like cheap

 

[Cathy*]

BTW, although LED flares are pretty cool and work great at night and don't expire, they have 1 big downside. They don't produce the orange smoke like the old fashioned ones. During daytime that smoke is easily visible.

Oh and old fashioned flares are pretty cheap. But he, I'm Dutch so I like cheap

Thank you. I've been through all the pros and cons and the electronic will suit my purposes. Flares are not cheap in the UK and ours are now out of date so we'll wait until we need them.

 

[Sea Devil]

It's a grey area where the interpretation by the local authority is, unfortunately, key. Because, even if you are right, it's very difficult to fight a local port authority/coastguard/custom officer and win :-(
Even if you have the relevant official documents printed, they will just ignore them 9 out of 10 times.

In my experience this is absolutely correct. It all depends on the ´local´official you are dealing with.

The UN sponsored ICC is a serious looking document and I suspect will satisfy most officials.

Never ever in over 50 years of sailing most of which done in non UK waters have I ever been asked for a sailing qualification. I have been boarded and searched on numerous occasions but the officials are really only interested in contraband or or taxes. Both Spanish and French want proof of the payment of local taxes.

If there is an incident accident of some kind then the qualification of the skipper will come into question.

 

[Sea Devil]

I've been discussing the Odeo electronic flares recently and have been told that France regulations require me to carry regular flares.

RYA advice is " If you are cruising the waters of another country, under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, that country is quite within its rights to ask you to comply with its applicable legislation, rules and regulations. This may include, for example, requiring the skipper to prove his or her competence for that role; carriage of local publications or regulations is also often stipulated. "

Your info states " No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered."

Where is the best place to find a definitive answer?

Not sure. When I sailed into New Zealand where you have to get a pratique to leave in order show the next country you visit, a case had gone to the International court as follows.

New Zealand law requires that any sail boat going offshore must have a bright yellow storm jib on board.
Numerous non NZ cruising boats were trapped by this law and had permission to leave refused.
A Brit yacht just sailed out one night and was apprehended by a NZ boarder control and taken to court and the international court decided in his favour that NZ did not have the right to impose this law on foreign vessels.

When I came to leave the officials in the Bay of Islands gave me a very hard time over this issue and it took a while to persuade them that they did not have the right to insist on this piece of equipment being on board. In the end they agreed and gave me my pratique.

On the other hand both Tunisia and Gibraltar require all visiting yachts to fly their courtesy flag. It is a law so I am not clear which is correct.... The Spanish illegally have matriculation tax which is actually import duty on all foreign goods and the EU just turns a blind eye

 

[Graham376]

Thank you. I've been through all the pros and cons and the electronic will suit my purposes. Flares are not cheap in the UK and ours are now out of date so we'll wait until we need them.

As already said the Coastal State can impose its own rules on boats not on innocent passage. We had problems here some years ago where the navy and police were inspecting visiting boats and requiring Portuguese standard of safety equipment - see Lagos Navigators site for list*. After RYA intervened, they agreed boats here <6 months come under their own flag regs. but those over 6 months have to equip to local standards. Electronic flares not recognised here and very difficult to buy proper flares as police authority required.

* http://liveinfo.lagosnavigators.net...uguese-safety-equipment-standards-for-yachts/

 

[Graham376]

On the other hand both Tunisia and Gibraltar require all visiting yachts to fly their courtesy flag. It is a law so I am not clear which is correct.

Never been required to do that, good job as I don't have one but, did get a ticking off one time when I had forgotten to drop the Spanish one.

 

[Sea Devil]

In Gibraltar it is a requirement for all merchant ships. If you stay in one of the marinas for long they will politely suggest you get a courtesy flag or sell you one. In Tunisia they will impose a very severe fine

 

[SV Kittiwake]

I think 90% of boats going into Gib have had that telling off

 

[sailaboutvic]

Going back to the 90 days in 180 days rule for non EU boats , say a boat left the EU on the 90 days and stayed out of the EU say for two weeks can that yacht return after two weeks and stay in the EU for another two weeks before having to leave ?
And if so how long can this go on for ? Before the yacht is back to its 90 days in 180 ?
Or does a yacht have to be out of the EU for 180 days before it's back to its 90/180

 

[macd]

Going back to the 90 days in 180 days rule for non EU boats , say a boat left the EU on the 90 days and stayed out of the EU say for two weeks can that yacht return after two weeks and stay in the EU for another two weeks before having to leave ?

There's no such rule for boats: 90 in 180 is for non-EU people.
For people it doesn't work as you ask: it's a rolling addition. Basically, the limit at any time is a total of 90 days in the preceding 180 days.

Non EU boats (i.e. non-EU VAT-paid boats owned by a non-EU resident) can remain for up to 18 months under Temporary Importation, potentially extendable by up to six months if out of use. This clock, but not the people clock, can be re-set by simply leaving EU waters. There is no stated minimum time limit for being out of EU waters. In most cases, TI is not formally applied for...it's just triggered by entering the EU. Extensions are by formal application. Overstaying makes VAT payable forthwith: the vessel is deemed imported.

None of this is specifically Brexit-related: it's the 'third country' rules as they've applied for years. Note also that TI is not limited to Schengen but to the entire EU VAT area.

(I think much of this is in pawpaw's original link.)

 

[sailaboutvic]

There's no such rule for boats: 90 in 180 is for non-EU people.
For people it doesn't work as you ask: it's a rolling addition. Basically, the limit at any time is a total of 90 days in the preceding 180 days.

Non EU boats (i.e. non-EU VAT-paid boats owned by a non-EU resident) can remain for up to 18 months under Temporary Importation, potentially extendable by up to six months if out of use. This clock, but not the people clock, can be re-set by simply leaving EU waters. There is no stated minimum time limit for being out of EU waters. In most cases, TI is not formally applied for...it's just triggered by entering the EU. Extensions are by formal application. Overstaying makes VAT payable forthwith: the vessel is deemed imported.

None of this is specifically Brexit-related: it's the 'third country' rules as they've applied for years. Note also that TI is not limited to Schengen but to the entire EU VAT area.

(I think much of this is in pawpaw's original link.)

Sorry Mac , I worded that wrong , what's new .
I meant for non Eu people,
A conversation the other day with some US sailor lead me to believe that after say 87 days they could leave the EU for say two weeks then they could return and because they been out for two weeks they where ok for another two weeks and three days ,
Where I understood it to be , if they returned back within the 180 days all they had left was three days which make up there 90 days .
So who's right ?

 

[macd]

Sorry Mac , I worded that wrong , what's new .
I meant for non Eu people,
A conversation the other day with some US sailor lead me to believe that after say 87 days they could leave the EU for say two weeks then they could return and because they been out for two weeks they where ok for another two weeks and three days ,
Where I understood it to be , if they returned back within the 180 days all they had left was three days which make up there 90 days .
So who's right ?

The American is in for a nasty surprise. By his arithmetic, he'd have spent 104 days (87 + 17) in the EU within the previous 180. Your instinct was correct.

Invite him to try it on any of the calculators, such as this official one: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/calculator.htm?lang=en

Out of curiosity, I tried it. If he'd previously entered the EU on 21/10/18 and left on 15/01/19, that would have given him his 87 days in Schengen. If he'd then returned two weeks later, "The stay may be authorised for up to: 3 day(s)", obviously totalling 90. Any more and he'd have been in bother.

 

[grumpygit]

The American is in for a nasty surprise. By his arithmetic, he'd have spent 104 days (87 + 17) in the EU within the previous 180. Your instinct was correct.

Invite him to try it on any of the calculators, such as this official one: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/calculator.htm?lang=en

Out of curiosity, I tried it. If he'd previously entered the EU on 21/10/18 and left on 15/01/19, that would have given him his 87 days in Schengen. If he'd then returned two weeks later, "The stay may be authorised for up to: 3 day(s)", obviously totalling 90. Any more and he'd have been in bother.

When we Brits have to leave the EU, we could well be up the EU creek without a paddle. Do we know what would happen to a non-EU national that just plain ignored these rulings and stopped in, let's say Greece.

 

[sailaboutvic]

When we Brits have to leave the EU, we could well be up the EU creek without a paddle. Do we know what would happen to a non-EU national that just plain ignored these rulings and stopped in, let's say Greece.

I have to say we know quite a few non EU who seen to spend a heck of a lot of time in the EU without leaving , god know how they do it , I guess they just don't worry about it and keep under the radar