MickeyGibb3651
New Member
Any advice from those having tried this method? eg % of mix?
Also whether best done befor or after epoxy repairs to planks and frames?
Also whether best done befor or after epoxy repairs to planks and frames?
Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
- Thread starter MickeyGibb3651
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LittleShip
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
Have a look at this
http://boatbuilding.com/article.php/ChemotherapyforRot
Regards
Tom
Have a look at this
http://boatbuilding.com/article.php/ChemotherapyforRot
Regards
Tom
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
It doesn't 'restore' timber! Nothing does except replacement with new timber! What it appears to do is to ensure rot is eradicated and does no further damage, by killing off the spores. You are confusing with such products as 'Git Rot' which is supposed to harden up the fibres of rotton wood and 'restore' it. The only difficulty is that it does not penetrate the rotton wood and simply forms a deceptive hard coat usually less than 5 - 8 mm thickness into the timber, with no real strength. Very dangerous on load bearing structural parts, because it 'looks' OK but does not restore structural strength and integrity. Rather literally a case of the 'paint holding the boat together'!
And both are a complete waste of time except on bare timber where it can soak in and get to the rot spores - it will never penetrate epoxy or paint to reach the timber that needs it.
It doesn't 'restore' timber! Nothing does except replacement with new timber! What it appears to do is to ensure rot is eradicated and does no further damage, by killing off the spores. You are confusing with such products as 'Git Rot' which is supposed to harden up the fibres of rotton wood and 'restore' it. The only difficulty is that it does not penetrate the rotton wood and simply forms a deceptive hard coat usually less than 5 - 8 mm thickness into the timber, with no real strength. Very dangerous on load bearing structural parts, because it 'looks' OK but does not restore structural strength and integrity. Rather literally a case of the 'paint holding the boat together'!
And both are a complete waste of time except on bare timber where it can soak in and get to the rot spores - it will never penetrate epoxy or paint to reach the timber that needs it.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
Totally agree. The only effective treatment for rotten timber is the saw followed by the bonfire
Totally agree. The only effective treatment for rotten timber is the saw followed by the bonfire
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
What about wood that seems unaffected , but the wood around it was rotten , i.e. adjacent planks that may be affected by the spores , that haven't actually started to rot ?
What about wood that seems unaffected , but the wood around it was rotten , i.e. adjacent planks that may be affected by the spores , that haven't actually started to rot ?
trouville
N/A
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
Ethylene glycol was/is used to STOP wood roting,If i had read this post yesterday i had the papers to hand!!
Wood is impregnated either by soaking or pressure then made into a rot proof boat!!
It is also used to protect and stop rot. It simply fills the capilerys in the wood and dosent evaporate,so no water can get in to the wood and start or continue rot!
Ive used it on my old boat and it kept some rot i had from getting worse,so a couple of years later i could change the plank!!
It works very well you could keep a really rotten boat going, though it dosent add strenght!!But for small areas of rot its wonderful--sort of elixer of life!!
Ethylene glycol was/is used to STOP wood roting,If i had read this post yesterday i had the papers to hand!!
Wood is impregnated either by soaking or pressure then made into a rot proof boat!!
It is also used to protect and stop rot. It simply fills the capilerys in the wood and dosent evaporate,so no water can get in to the wood and start or continue rot!
Ive used it on my old boat and it kept some rot i had from getting worse,so a couple of years later i could change the plank!!
It works very well you could keep a really rotten boat going, though it dosent add strenght!!But for small areas of rot its wonderful--sort of elixer of life!!
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
Exactly! I only said 'appears to..' because I have never actually tried it.
The original post asked if it 'restored' hull timbers. The answer is - no it does not. The claim that it prevents further damage occurring is quite well documented and supported - but definitely NOT as a means of 'restoring' rotten timber. This answers your question too Trevira, if the timber is sound, Ethylene Glycol (best known as anti-freeze for the car) will kill off any rot spores present in the timber - though I have reservations about the claim it can make a wooden boat entirely rot-free!
Exactly! I only said 'appears to..' because I have never actually tried it.
The original post asked if it 'restored' hull timbers. The answer is - no it does not. The claim that it prevents further damage occurring is quite well documented and supported - but definitely NOT as a means of 'restoring' rotten timber. This answers your question too Trevira, if the timber is sound, Ethylene Glycol (best known as anti-freeze for the car) will kill off any rot spores present in the timber - though I have reservations about the claim it can make a wooden boat entirely rot-free!
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
When I had dry rot in a house I cut out the rotten timber about 2 feet beyond the boundary of the rot and burnt it, removed the plaster because the spores can penetrate it and applied a blowlamp to the masonary. New timber was treated with Cuprinol [nasty dangerous stuff if inhaled]. I also burnt the clothes I wore when removing the infected material. Having treated the dry rot you have to make sure the conditions that caused it do not recurr, i.e. improve ventilation and prevent water getting in.
I've only encountered wet rot in boats and that is not as virulent as dry rot, so timber that seems sound probably is. But if in doubt chop it out. You don't want to have to do the job again in a couple of years time. Again you need find out what caused the rot, rain water being trapped somewhere is most likely.
When it comes to magic and expensive patent solutions, I'm afraid I tend not to believe that "it does what it says on the can"! At least until I see competent professionals using it. Probably a Luddite attitude but a result of having wasted money in the past and finally ending up having to do the job properly to get a satisfactory result.
When I had dry rot in a house I cut out the rotten timber about 2 feet beyond the boundary of the rot and burnt it, removed the plaster because the spores can penetrate it and applied a blowlamp to the masonary. New timber was treated with Cuprinol [nasty dangerous stuff if inhaled]. I also burnt the clothes I wore when removing the infected material. Having treated the dry rot you have to make sure the conditions that caused it do not recurr, i.e. improve ventilation and prevent water getting in.
I've only encountered wet rot in boats and that is not as virulent as dry rot, so timber that seems sound probably is. But if in doubt chop it out. You don't want to have to do the job again in a couple of years time. Again you need find out what caused the rot, rain water being trapped somewhere is most likely.
When it comes to magic and expensive patent solutions, I'm afraid I tend not to believe that "it does what it says on the can"! At least until I see competent professionals using it. Probably a Luddite attitude but a result of having wasted money in the past and finally ending up having to do the job properly to get a satisfactory result.
Mirelle
N/A
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
I'm with Twisterowner here.
Dry rot is not to be messed around with AT ALL!
Expert advice required - and the advice may well be, "Buy a gallon of paraffin and a box of matches..."
Wet rot - cut well back beyond the affected parts, dry everything out properly and then scheme carefully how to get the strength back. If the rot is in a beam or a frame then things are not too bad, but if planking is affected you need to remember shift of butts, which means that you will be replacing a lot of good planking along with the bad.
I'm with Twisterowner here.
Dry rot is not to be messed around with AT ALL!
Expert advice required - and the advice may well be, "Buy a gallon of paraffin and a box of matches..."
Wet rot - cut well back beyond the affected parts, dry everything out properly and then scheme carefully how to get the strength back. If the rot is in a beam or a frame then things are not too bad, but if planking is affected you need to remember shift of butts, which means that you will be replacing a lot of good planking along with the bad.
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
I'm presuming that you will have seen my new post by now , so will know why I'm asking. So basically , if its rotten chop it out, if it's wet dry it and treat it , if it's dry (above the waterline)) chop it and all that's round it , out . Am I about right ?
I'm presuming that you will have seen my new post by now , so will know why I'm asking. So basically , if its rotten chop it out, if it's wet dry it and treat it , if it's dry (above the waterline)) chop it and all that's round it , out . Am I about right ?
trouville
N/A
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
When i posted my reply i was useing a GPRS connection and hear its 1meg +time so i cant wait online and only read the first question, and glanced at the replies now ive read them!!!
I agree its not a solution to fixing a rotten boat but it is a cheep and effective way of trying to rot proof, and in my case i took out a fitting let the boat dry? then soaked the wood in anti freez makeing sure it was Ethyl-glycol. and brushed it into the end grain.
The yard only let me stay out for one week 10 days maximum and as i had to antifoul change the anodes and a fitting i dident want to cut out a plank and find i dident have time or money to pay the hard standing (which doubled the daily rate after 7 days!!)My application held the rot at bay and as it was just about one foot on a plank on the waterline i could keep an eye on it!!
Read the posts again!!(I really shoul read things!!)
Dry rot is something to fear!! Im told and have read that the sporse can float in the wind and rot boats near it!!!!! As said above with dry rot cut it out and burn it!
You can also use a heat gun to kill the spores if you cant cut it out at once,again i was told, Thankfully ive never tried that as i havent had dry rot i hope!!
When i posted my reply i was useing a GPRS connection and hear its 1meg +time so i cant wait online and only read the first question, and glanced at the replies now ive read them!!!
I agree its not a solution to fixing a rotten boat but it is a cheep and effective way of trying to rot proof, and in my case i took out a fitting let the boat dry? then soaked the wood in anti freez makeing sure it was Ethyl-glycol. and brushed it into the end grain.
The yard only let me stay out for one week 10 days maximum and as i had to antifoul change the anodes and a fitting i dident want to cut out a plank and find i dident have time or money to pay the hard standing (which doubled the daily rate after 7 days!!)My application held the rot at bay and as it was just about one foot on a plank on the waterline i could keep an eye on it!!
Read the posts again!!(I really shoul read things!!)
Dry rot is something to fear!! Im told and have read that the sporse can float in the wind and rot boats near it!!!!! As said above with dry rot cut it out and burn it!
You can also use a heat gun to kill the spores if you cant cut it out at once,again i was told, Thankfully ive never tried that as i havent had dry rot i hope!!
cliffordpope
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
I believe both Borax and Ethylene Glycol have been used to stop or prevent rot in museum-preserved wooden boats, and I think Borax in particular has some tradition as a working preservative.
So of course does salt - old working boats that were used to carry salt are said to be remarkably well preserved.
There was a flurry of interest in Ethylene Glycol on the historic vessels forum some years ago, and the concensus seemed to be that it worked. I questioned whether anybody had ever looked at its long-term effects on wood, having just read that a chemical time-bomb disaster was looming on the Vasa because of use some years ago of a new-fangled preservative (not EG). I got an angry response from a museum director saying amateurs had no right to question experts' preservation techniques.
I'd also be concerned about the blue colour leeching out - you'd need a source other than ordinary antifreeze.
I believe both Borax and Ethylene Glycol have been used to stop or prevent rot in museum-preserved wooden boats, and I think Borax in particular has some tradition as a working preservative.
So of course does salt - old working boats that were used to carry salt are said to be remarkably well preserved.
There was a flurry of interest in Ethylene Glycol on the historic vessels forum some years ago, and the concensus seemed to be that it worked. I questioned whether anybody had ever looked at its long-term effects on wood, having just read that a chemical time-bomb disaster was looming on the Vasa because of use some years ago of a new-fangled preservative (not EG). I got an angry response from a museum director saying amateurs had no right to question experts' preservation techniques.
I'd also be concerned about the blue colour leeching out - you'd need a source other than ordinary antifreeze.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
Huh? The preservation of the Vasa was with Polyethylene glycol, not a 'new fangled' preservatives. Their current problems are due to iron bolts in the structure catalysing sulfur in the wood into sulpyhuric acid.
Huh? The preservation of the Vasa was with Polyethylene glycol, not a 'new fangled' preservatives. Their current problems are due to iron bolts in the structure catalysing sulfur in the wood into sulpyhuric acid.
cliffordpope
Well-Known Member
Re: Ethylene Glycol & Borax For Restoring Hull Timbers
Yes, but there was a suggestion, quite probably unfounded, that the preservation methods used had caused this problem to surface. There have been preservation problems with the SS Great Britain amongst others, but for different reasons.
My only point was, just because something seems a good idea at the time doesn't guarantee it won't cause, or contribute to, problems in later years. I asked whether anyone had any experience of any problems associated with the use of EG arising after say 10, 20 or more years.
Has anyone any?
Yes, but there was a suggestion, quite probably unfounded, that the preservation methods used had caused this problem to surface. There have been preservation problems with the SS Great Britain amongst others, but for different reasons.
My only point was, just because something seems a good idea at the time doesn't guarantee it won't cause, or contribute to, problems in later years. I asked whether anyone had any experience of any problems associated with the use of EG arising after say 10, 20 or more years.
Has anyone any?