Epirb and dry suit v life-raft

dylanwinter

dylanwinter

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www.keepturningleft.co.uk
At some stage during my journey around the UK I am hoping to get to the Orkneys

It will be in the summer but the water is still cold

I know that in the scale of things it is not a massive undertaking

however,

in preparation for something awful happening

attacked by a whale, centre-plate bolt break and boat fill with water, stuck in an un-predicted hurricane, run out of popcorn - you know the sort of thing

I was thinking about getting hold of a dry suit and using an Epirb in the hope that the dry suit would keep me alive long enough for the "Beam me up Scottie"

sensible or crazy?
 
Dylan

Read the ongoing thread on response times for EPIRB activations. Not the best way of attracting attention in coastal waters. Stick to VHF, particularly a DSC/GPS alert and a PLB and that will get you the fastest response and provide a means of locating you.

As to a liferaft, the incidence of use in coastal waters is very, very low and there are no practical single person rafts on the market, only bulky heavy, difficult to use 4+ man rafts. Dry suit might be a good idea - but do you want to wear one all the time as putting it on in an emergency is not easy. On the other hand boats very rarely sink quickly (if at all) so you may have some preparation time. Even in our cold waters survival times can be surprisingly long if you have a good lifejacket with a spray hood.

Falling off the boat is a far bigger risk than foundering so avoid that and the risks diminish rapidly. Harnesses and LJs top of the list. The small risk of foundering usually results from a series of events before a liferaft becomes the last ditch option, so a good means of communication is essential.

Back to paragraph 1.
 
Personnel on oil rigs reckon that they have about 5-10 mins pending fitness, body mass etc before hypothermia sets in whilst wearing a survival suit - this is what led to the rapid development of the sealed liferafts that they have on derricks.

I reckon with warm clothes you could stretch and a bit of preparative thinking you could stretch that to 30 mins but its a push to think that the commercial SAR (as it will be in months few) will be able to beam you up in that time. Wearing a drybag whilst on deck may be prudent, but I would have something to get into (liferaft or perhaps tow a rubber dinghy)?
 
To be honest, I reckon the right answer if you want to be properly prepared is both a survival suit (something like http://www.ship-technology.com/contractor_images/ursuk/5new_5001.jpg ) and a raft, plus a PLB or EPIRB. That's what a ship would have.

You've got two years to collect the kit. The suits come up on eBay from time to time for £60 to £100 as they get retired from ships.

Pete
 
Stark, staring, wide eyed, raving bonkers.

Bit of mission creep here.
You know where the Orkneys are and very nice they probably are. But they don't quite fit the mission statement.

The water there is deep and cold and disdainful of boats of any size.

Life-rafts are for looking at and absorbing money every 3 years and any 'all in one suit' is reserved for use between consenting adults.
 
RAF winchman used to moonlight at our airfield. He said they had to pretty quick to get the pilots out of the N Sea. Pilots had drysuits but needed to get into their little dinghys if they had any chance of survival beyond 20 odd minutes. Any way, you need to keep your copy of war and peace dry so you have something to read while you wait......
 
DownWest said:
RAF winchman used to moonlight at our airfield. He said they had to pretty quick to get the pilots out of the N Sea. Pilots had drysuits but needed to get into their little dinghys if they had any chance of survival beyond 20 odd minutes. Any way, you need to keep your copy of war and peace dry so you have something to read while you wait......
Click to expand...

so this plan is dead in the water then

just have to take a gamble on nothing going wrong

positive bouyancy in the boat perhaps - which is what Ming Ming man does

D
 
dylanwinter said:
so this plan is dead in the water then

just have to take a gamble on nothing going wrong

positive bouyancy in the boat perhaps - which is what Ming Ming man does

D
Click to expand...

Agreed with the positive bouyancy idea. My E-Boat is filled with polystyrene for that very reason, and the waters you are talking about is my local sailing ground.
You dont want to go into the water at all. Best bet is to have a dinghy to tow or stow on deck, even 3/4 inflated.
The first trip I made across the Moray Firth was made with a big "toy" dinghy 3/4 inflated, "just in case". Even that would be better than being in the water, which at the end of the "Summer" up here reaches a max of 7 DegC or thereabouts.
 
Internal bouancy was my first thought too. The surveyor (needed for insurance) asked if my little boat had anything in the lockers as a safeguard. Then suggested filling them with plastic water bottles. So, you have two years to collect enough... Light, cheap and disposable.
 
I think that having a dry suit (together with an undersuit) is a good thing to have aboard for a number of reasons. I'm a diver so on longer passages I like to have full kit aboard. I've even worn my dry suit at the helm once in torrential rain.

As to summer / immersion survival times, my average dive time is about an hour. I usually need to get out of the water becuase of a) need to pee, or b) consumed my air. Summer water temp generally isn't a reason to get out. On the contrary, in very hot conditions (UK waters) occassionally some people risk over heating while at the surface.
 
Your idea is the same as that of some pilots of small aircraft crossing the English Channel.
Their craft are not large enough for life rafts and I have been supplying them with Gore-tex dry suits / survival suits.

Don't know the rights and wrongs of the matter. I don't have enough experience of survival situations to be able to offer advice there. Love the videos by the way. Fair winds to you.

dylanwinter said:
At some stage during my journey around the UK I am hoping to get to the Orkneys

It will be in the summer but the water is still cold

I know that in the scale of things it is not a massive undertaking

however,

in preparation for something awful happening

attacked by a whale, centre-plate bolt break and boat fill with water, stuck in an un-predicted hurricane, run out of popcorn - you know the sort of thing

I was thinking about getting hold of a dry suit and using an Epirb in the hope that the dry suit would keep me alive long enough for the "Beam me up Scottie"

sensible or crazy?
Click to expand...
 
Dylan (and anyone else who thinks a drysuit or survival suit is a replacement for a life raft),

I attach a link to the sad story of Jean-Marc Allaire, who was found drowned after falling overboard in a survival suit.

http://www.newfreebooters.com/death...s-a-shadow-over-the-start-of-the-mini-transat

My personal opinion is that you certainly need a lifejacket and sprayhood with a drysuit, and this story indicates that it is probably necessary even with a survival suit. I can see that both the flotation (to keep your face out of the water) and the sprayhood (to keep the water out of your face) would be essential.

I agree with Tranona. Foundering is a very low risk. Falling over is a much larger risk. On the passage you are contemplating I would suggest getting a PLB anyway, and stay attached to the boat.

I know you have seen my transat video and you will see that I am wearing a harness in every shot. I estimate that, on my crossing, I spent more than 60% of the time physically attached to the boat (often even when sleeping in the cabin), including over 90% of the time that I was not in the cabin. Really the only time I was outside but not connected was at the start and finish of the race. A lot of that was motivated by Jean-Marc's death - something we were reminded of repeatedly by the race organisers. Stay attached.

Good luck with your long-term project. If you want a boat with internal flotation, look for an old mini.
 
Falling in cold 'North Sea' water, without any heat loss prevention brings into play a '1-10-1'' timetable I read once.
In cold water there's the 1 minute of hyperventilation as the cold hits the person.
After that phase there's 10 minutes of being able to function, donning gloves, deploying sprayhood or EPIRB etc.
There follows the 1 hour of decline leading to death.
A survival suit with the standard offshore 3 layers beneath it will keep a person going for far longer than that I'd believe just by the nature of these suits that I wear 2-3 times a month now, and comparing them to the 'Old wetsuits' that I used a lifetime ago as a submarine swimmer where on occasion one could be in the water for an hour also.
I'd hate to try and don a proper survival suit on a 'smallish' boat in any sort of inclement weather, and wearing the suit plus a lifejacket on a small boat would give real issues by virtue of bulk and 'snag profile'.
Surely the solution would be a 2 piece Fladen type of flotation suit where the survival times are very good if bad things happen and can be worn normally without constraint. They're normal in usage at many boatyards that I've been to recently in Scotland over the winter, also very common on MFV's I believe.
They're about £120 I know, but if it was produced with a 'Yottie' label on it they'd have an extra zero on the end some might say....
 
jamie N said:
Falling in cold 'North Sea' water, without any heat loss prevention brings into play a '1-10-1'' timetable I read once.
In cold water there's the 1 minute of hyperventilation as the cold hits the person.
After that phase there's 10 minutes of being able to function, donning gloves, deploying sprayhood or EPIRB etc.
There follows the 1 hour of decline leading to death.
A survival suit with the standard offshore 3 layers beneath it will keep a person going for far longer than that I'd believe just by the nature of these suits that I wear 2-3 times a month now, and comparing them to the 'Old wetsuits' that I used a lifetime ago as a submarine swimmer where on occasion one could be in the water for an hour also.
I'd hate to try and don a proper survival suit on a 'smallish' boat in any sort of inclement weather, and wearing the suit plus a lifejacket on a small boat would give real issues by virtue of bulk and 'snag profile'.
Surely the solution would be a 2 piece Fladen type of flotation suit where the survival times are very good if bad things happen and can be worn normally without constraint. They're normal in usage at many boatyards that I've been to recently in Scotland over the winter, also very common on MFV's I believe.
They're about £120 I know, but if it was produced with a 'Yottie' label on it they'd have an extra zero on the end some might say....
Click to expand...

Yer right there. I also have a 2-piece flotation suit. Mines is made by Bison, and it great in bad weather, but roasting hot in any warmer weather unless your sitting perfectly still!

Heres mine:- http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/i...igi=12d16o03d&.crumb=vaCgKXJFJdW&fr=yfp-t-702
 
Dinghy cruisers wear drysuits all day because they are comfortable and keep them warm. I would invest in a very good quality drysuit from the likes of Trident UK http://www.tridentuk.com and full set of high tech under layers to keep you warm. Further I would buy a lifejacket that has the full face hood; also buy the PLB, VHFDSC as already advised. I believe you could sail about all day in these dry suits and have a fighting chance if you went in after the boat sinks from under you. A liferaft is not worth it, however you could hire one for the longer crossings.
 
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