Engine oil when heeling

[pugwash]

Fascinating question is raised in the post below -- one thatt had never crossed my mind.

How far can you heel before you need to worry about oil inside the engine. I do a lot of motor-sailing under reefed genoa and mizzen, especially when very hard on the wind. She heels a lot but is very comfortable. I have a 20hp three-pot Lister-Peter diesel about eight years old. I do keep a close watch on the gauges and have never spotted any problem. But is there a chance my engine could be affected?

 

[rogerroger]

Anyone who's read my posts will realise I know close to sod all about engines - but doesn't the oil just get spat and thrown wildy around the engine when it's running so heel, or even inversion, just won't matter?

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[WayneS]

the issue is where the oil pump pickup is. You don't want to heel to the extent where the oil is now on the side on the engine and not where the pump picks it up from.

However, I also must say that I don't know too much on the subject but I would have thought that, as long as your oil level is up to where it should be, surely any decent engie will be designed in such a way as to deal with this.

I am a biker and m/c's engines do not have a problem when you go round a corner. Sure, you are not lying down for long (Unless you cock things up). However, their design does not allow for you popping the front wheel up in the air for too long. Stunt riders modify their oil pickup point to deal with this.

My feeling is that as long as you are comfortable, the engine will be.

I'm sure that someone will shoot this theory down though.

Cheers

Wayne

 

[Peter_the_Grate]

The only impact that I've noticed, after running for a long time heeled, is that the engine uses a bit of oil; engine is a Yanmar 1GM. It doesn't use much but I keep an eye on it in case it gets low enough for the pipe drawing oil from the sump to the pump is at risk of sucking air. This will of course drop the oil pressure to nothing - oops. I've never yet had such a problem so I'm probably worrying about something that won't happen, but ...

I put the increased consumption down to oil not readily draining from the bore (sloping whilst heeled rather than vertical) and getting burned.

P.

 

[dickh]

Most Marine engines will cope with a reasonable heeling angle - see your engine handbook and it will tell you.

 

[vyv_cox]

Most of your lubricated surfaces are pressure fed with oil that is distributed through the galleries from the oil pump. The risk is that the strainer that sits on the suction of the pump will be in air, so no oil is distributed. Splash lubrication accounts for a very small proportion of the engine. The main components that would be at risk if oil supply was cut off are all the critical ones, like bearings, small ends, cams and tappets. Unlubricated big-end bearings will seize in seconds. Most engines seem to accept about 30 degrees of heel, although it almost always varies according to side. Engine user manuals usually give the recommended maximum.

 

[tony_brighton]

most marinised engines have a deeper sump to provide a well when heeled.

 

[Aja]

Yanmar 2GM20F handbook recommends that you dont heel the engine more than 20 degrees for 'prolonged' periods.

I dont heel the engine (when running) more than 20 degrees fullstop.

Donald

 

[Strathglass]

The maximum angle of heel and fore/aft tilt will usually be found in the engine specifications. It depends upon the shape of the sump and position of pick up pipe. The actual angle can vary between 10 degrees and 30 degrees depending on make of engine. In most modern engines there is a pick up pipe which must remain under the surface of the oil to ensure that oil and not air is pumped in to lubricate the bearings. An engine with the oil to the top mark on the dipstick will be able to stand more heel than one with less oil. The alternative is to fit a rally car type of dry sump lubrication system, then the angle of heel would not matter.
Iain

 

[peterk]

Re: willywaws

Part of the problem would be HOW LONG you heel beyond the red line.
- in the old Volvo Pentas that used to be 15 degrees .
a marine diesel mechanic once told me not to run the engine at a greater angle
for more than a few minutes
- what would be the point of that in sailboat anyway?
Its a good idea to keep a weather eye cocked for the possibility
of prolonged willywaws
- as when passing a high island close by.

keep on truckin'
....momma!

peter www.juprowa.com/kittel

 

[bob_tyler]

May I suggest that a motorcycle is not a good analogy. When a m/c is heeled the oil would remain roughly level in relation to the motor owing to centrifugal force (swing a bucket of water round you).

Centrifugal force would not apply to a heeled boat.

 

[muchy_]

Motorcycle engines are different

The oil in a motorcycle engine stays in the sump when cornering because of centrafugal force, however not so in a yacht. You will probably find that the angles of heel even when quite pronounced are not enough to uncover the oil pickup.

 

[ianwright]

For crying out loud! At 15, 20 or 30 degrees of heel turn the bloody engine OFF and sail the thing. At 30 think about reefing not motoring.

IanW.

Vertue 203, Patience

 

[pugwash]

Fair point. If my boat went to windward as neatly as a Vertue you'd be right, but she is essentially a motor sailer. Sails well in all conditions except when the wind comes hard on the bow, and in anything of a lop she stops dead. With jib and mizzen (she's a ketch) and a bit of engine, however, she sings along very close to the wind and I can make port before mutiny is provoked. I haven't worked out what the angle of heel actually is. Water comes to the lee toe-rail but no further. Might be only 20 degrees, don't know. The question is pertinent though.

 

[ianwright]

Well Yes,,,,,,,,

With a 50/50 then you will motorsail,,,,,,,horses for courses and so forth.
I'll bet though that without an inclinometer most folk over estimate their angle of dangle, I like to reef long before I step into the sink or onto the chart table when going "down stairs" As another message said if you are comfortable your motor will be too.

IanW.

Vertue 203, Patience

 

[mldpt]

Hi agree that 30 deg is a bit much and very uncomfortable, but if on a long night passage, batteries get a bit low, it concerns me a bit when running the engine to charge, I have an inclinometer, plastic cost about £5 its a ball in a plastic oil filled tube, which reads about about 15 deg at most,
Mike

 

[ianwright]

Re:Long night passage,,,

Slightly different problem don't you think? If a night passage will run you out of amps and volts then you need more or bigger batteries, no?
I forget all the figures, but on my five tonner with normal nav lights, vhf, auto pilot gps etc I worked out my normal consumption, doubled it and then bought two batteries of that size,,,,,,
never needed to re-charge during a night passage in twelve years, and I am NOT well known for my regular battery maintainance,,,,,,

IanW.

Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Running the engine inverted clearly has many problems least being the prop will be out of the water.
Engine maufacturers must allow for us to motor sail, on cars the oil pick up pipe is usually from the lowest and often from a separate low sump section so this area will never be emtied by crank action. A motor sailer would not normally lay over far enough to cause engine problems 10 - 20 degrees should be within acceptable limits. I think the ploblem of hydraulicing occurs eventually which is the same result of overfilling with oil, something which is not recommended. I would recommend reducing sail and hence angle of heel during periods of running the engine for battery top up, if the angle of heel exceeds 20 degrees.
The point made about centrifugal force is interresting as in a car this force would exceed that from laying the boat over 30 degrees, try going round a bend at speed with a bucket of water in the car.
All the best.
Trevor

 

[mldpt]

Re:Long night passage,,,

Night or day if at sea for more than 48hours my 200AH batteries need charging and if sailing the engine need running whilst heeling over. so the length of the night passage doesnt matter, Mike