E-Borders question..

[Fire99]

This may sound a little pippy but who actually has our backs with the E-Borders fiasco?

Though I'm glad that things have been postponed, I feel we are effectively holding our breaths on this issue...

 

[NormanS]

This may sound a little pippy but who actually has our backs with the E-Borders fiasco?

Though I'm glad that things have been postponed, I feel we are effectively holding our breaths on this issue...

The question is,




What on earth are you on about?

 

[Searush]

The question is,

What on earth are you on about?

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/customs-travel/beforetravel/advanceinfopassengers/

It was proposed that leisure craft should be included in the system designed for mass transport Ferries & aircraft. Several bodies (inc RYA) pointed out the absurdity & it has lapsed into obscurity, so far.

I suspect Fire99 is concerned it will simply be enacted quietly without telling anyone next time. One suggested response when this was discussed last time was that we could all file the required advance passage plan for overseas trips every weekend, and then cancel it for weather or personal reasons if we didn't go. That way we would all be covered if we did go foreign & the system would collapse under the weight of traffic.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I'm curious how many people sail cross channel with less than 24hours of planning... i.e. wake up today, look out the window and think - lets nip over to France for some lunch. I'm more of a "it looks like a nice day on Saturday according to the forecast" kind of guy so I could register a passage and delay / cancel it. But no need to register every weekend as I know I wont be going every weekend.

Web based process... Doubt the entire UK yachting community will crash their server...

 

[jdc]

The thing is that some form of electronic reporting is going to happen - the daily wail readers will make it a political necessity: welcome to democracy! So what's needed is to come up with a scheme which:

1. is workable
2. is not onerous and unrealistic for yachts (eg assuming we've all got Inmarsat terminals)
3. does not involve draconian punishments for those who have failed to comply through force majeur or innocent mistake (ie some kind of amnesty if one 'owns-up' reasonably quickly and honestly)
4. does not erode the freedoms we enjoy, the protection of which being the purpose of government
5. is compatible with lots' of other legislation such as the data protection act
and probably others I've forgotten.

So the answer to the OP is that the usual people who watch our backs are still active on our behalf. Certainly the CA is, as is the RYA I imagine.

 

[Searush]

I'm curious how many people sail cross channel with less than 24hours of planning... i.e. wake up today, look out the window and think - lets nip over to France for some lunch. I'm more of a "it looks like a nice day on Saturday according to the forecast" kind of guy so I could register a passage and delay / cancel it. But no need to register every weekend as I know I wont be going every weekend.

Web based process... Doubt the entire UK yachting community will crash their server...

On the assumption that no-one ever will check the data that may be true. But if no-one ever checks the data, it may well be that no-one ever needs to fill it in either. I guess they will stop a handful & check if they have entered their info & arrest them if they haven't.

 

[lpdsn]

I'm curious how many people sail cross channel with less than 24hours of planning... i.e. wake up today, look out the window and think - lets nip over to France for some lunch. I'm more of a "it looks like a nice day on Saturday according to the forecast" kind of guy so I could register a passage and delay / cancel it. But no need to register every weekend as I know I wont be going every weekend.

Web based process... Doubt the entire UK yachting community will crash their server...

France is not the only nearby foreign country. They've got bigger problems with the scheme than a few yachties going across the English Channel. Northern Ireland in the killer. SF are going to object to any attempt to close the border with the South. A lot of the economy of the border towns is based on trade from the South, so it would be madness to do something to throw thousands out of work in mainly Republican areas. And the DUP are hardly going to take kindly to one part of the UK being excluded from the rest, which was the hare-brained solution they came up with the last time.

 

[ShinyShoe]

France is not the only nearby foreign country. They've got bigger problems with the scheme than a few yachties going across the English Channel. Northern Ireland in the killer. SF are going to object to any attempt to close the border with the South. A lot of the economy of the border towns is based on trade from the South, so it would be madness to do something to throw thousands out of work in mainly Republican areas. And the DUP are hardly going to take kindly to one part of the UK being excluded from the rest, which was the hare-brained solution they came up with the last time.

Forgive me for being stupid... but you can deal with this in 3 ways.

1. Draw a line round Scotland(lets not start that discussion yet!), England and Wales and keep a track of who comes in and who goes out. I cant imagine there are enough DUP politicians to make it a deal breaker
2. Include NI in the mix and try and track people crossing a land border to Eire. Probably impossible
3. Draw the line round the whole of the UK and Eire. If the UK thinks there is something in it for them, then why not the Irish too.

 

[ShinyShoe]

On the assumption that no-one ever will check the data that may be true. But if no-one ever checks the data, it may well be that no-one ever needs to fill it in either. I guess they will stop a handful & check if they have entered their info & arrest them if they haven't.

A human isn't going to check the data. Its going to be done by computer. So lets say passport no 123456 flies into the UK from another country, but leaves by yacht. How does the UK know that person ever left. If that is a non EU citizen they would be left to assume they overstayed their VISA. Its a pretty flawed process. Alternatively, someone who the UK government doesn't want to admit only needs to get to a yacht in France and over they come... no flag on entry at the port...

So what'll happen is you'll say you are leaving the country on date X, passport no ABC and a robotic computer programme will store that and go and check up against a list of interested people. Provided MI5/6 aren't looking for you and possibly you aren't on a police wanted list you'll be fine. If you are a foreign national they'll record your departure so that you don't appear to be overstaying. No doubt they'll also build up a pattern of movements and some stats sofwtare will flag suspicious movements - sails to Caribbean 12 times a year, stays 24hours and returns. Might get a customs visit...

So then the only concern for law abiding individuals is (a) what happens if you enter the data wrong (b) what happens if you forget / fail to give 24 hours notice etc.

(a) If you watch any of these border patrol shows the first thing that ever happens is you get asked if the info you've completed is correct. If you get asked that do NOT just say yes. Double check it. If there is anything you aren't sure of say so. So if there is a box that says are you carrying explosives and you have some flares on you and you ticked no you might want to say "well obviously I carry flares for safety reasons but I'm assuming they aren't classed as explosives" rather than just saying "the form is correct". You might get a lecture. They wouldn't expect you to make the same mistake twice. Unless they think you purposefully lied ("Oh I forgot the two Kosovains that I met in the pub last night") I doubt you are going to get taken to court. You might get added to a watch list and be stopped more frequently.

(b) Forget but remember when you arrive - probably different from forget and so never bother. Fail to give 24 hours notice. I believe I can turn up at an airport, buy a ticket and get on the plane 40minutes later. Now there are a couple of advantages for enforcement - if I flag up there will be some nice armed men in the airport who will quickly hunt me down. If for some reason I slip past them and get on the plane they know the EasyJet to Maliga is actually going to Maliga, and if for any reason it doesn't they'll know about it. They can arrange for someone to be in Maliga to meet me. My yacht claiming to head to Bordeaux could go anywhere. But also remember planes get diverted etc. I've certainly been on a Plane from the US bound for the UK and found myself in Amsterdam. People mis flights regularly.

I think there will be numerous factors that flag a trip to be of interest. The port of departure, route & destination, length of stay, the vessel, those on board, the journey history of the vessel and the individuals, probably also alongside the amount of notice given...

Rest assured there isn't going to be any additional enforcement resource - so chances of being stopped will be low. But it is a fairly hefty hole in the system right now...

Most non sailors are amazed that you don't have to register a passage plan with anyone. Most people the first time they visit Ireland by ferry will ask the question if they need to take a passport or ID etc.

 

[lpdsn]

Forgive me for being stupidQUOTE]

No. Not for something so important.

 

[rgarside]

The RYA has been interacting with the powers that be to address the issues this raises for recreational boating. I expect that people are aware of the dialogue about this over the past 3 or more years.

 

[Sailfree]

I'm curious how many people sail cross channel with less than 24hours of planning... ...

The going is usually planned - subject to last minute weather check. Its the day you come back that will be mostly unplanned.

In our case we start looking a week before and opt for best day to cross could be ant day in a 5-7 day window.

 

[Heckler]

The thing is that some form of electronic reporting is going to happen - the daily wail readers will make it a political necessity: welcome to democracy! So what's needed is to come up with a scheme which:

1. is workable
2. is not onerous and unrealistic for yachts (eg assuming we've all got Inmarsat terminals)
3. does not involve draconian punishments for those who have failed to comply through force majeur or innocent mistake (ie some kind of amnesty if one 'owns-up' reasonably quickly and honestly)
4. does not erode the freedoms we enjoy, the protection of which being the purpose of government
5. is compatible with lots' of other legislation such as the data protection act
and probably others I've forgotten.

So the answer to the OP is that the usual people who watch our backs are still active on our behalf. Certainly the CA is, as is the RYA I imagine.

Daily Mail readers are normally right of centre. Right of centre doesnt do govt meddling, left of centre does!
Stu

 

[maby]

I'm somewhere to the right of Hitler - if I thought that e-Borders was going to make any contribution to controlling immigration I would be all for it - even if it inconveniences me. Trouble is that it will do nothing at all to keep the genuinely damaging people out (or in, for that matter), it will cost an enormous amount of money and it will inconvenience us. On a warm summer day, you could easily cross the channel to France in a cheap inflatable with a moderate outboard - asking us to register our movements on a simple web site is going to do absolutely nothing to control criminals and terrorists.

 

[Leighb]

I think our borders are pretty loosely monitored at the best of times.

When we departed from Gatwick recently for a trip to Madeira we never went through Passport Control which we always have done before. Somehow we went through Security but never had our Passports checked.

So if you can leave with no checks how can they possibly know who is in or out of the country.

 

[philip_stevens]

According to an RYA lawyer at a recent AGM, the EU commissioners have deemed the British eBorders as illegal in view of free travel within the EU.

I am not sure if he said that the government were appealing against the EU ruling.

 

[Birdseye]

This may sound a little pippy but who actually has our backs with the E-Borders fiasco?

Though I'm glad that things have been postponed, I feel we are effectively holding our breaths on this issue...

"pippy" ? "has our backs"? I thought these might be mistypes but I couldnt work out what was being mistyped. Then I thought that they must be local expressions in some part of the country though I've never heard them before. Can you explain please?

 

[chrisclin]

France is not the only nearby foreign country. They've got bigger problems with the scheme than a few yachties going across the English Channel. Northern Ireland in the killer. SF are going to object to any attempt to close the border with the South. A lot of the economy of the border towns is based on trade from the South, so it would be madness to do something to throw thousands out of work in mainly Republican areas. And the DUP are hardly going to take kindly to one part of the UK being excluded from the rest, which was the hare-brained solution they came up with the last time.

My understanding was that UK and Eire will form a common area. The terms of the original creation of Eire insists on free movement between Eire and the Rest of the UK without passports so e-borders is a joint exercise between London and Dublin.

 

[prv]

"pippy" ? "has our backs"? I thought these might be mistypes but I couldnt work out what was being mistyped. Then I thought that they must be local expressions in some part of the country though I've never heard them before. Can you explain please?

"Pippy" is a new one on me, though I can kind of glark it from context.

Having someone's back is a perfectly common idiom, though, imported from the US. It means protecting or looking out for them (in the sense of looking out for their interests, not scanning the horizon!). Imagine going into a dangerous situation where an enemy might come at you from any direction - your buddy who's got your back is making sure nobody leaps at you from behind, while you concentrate on what's ahead. Think US police or soldiers raiding a house.

Pete

 

[Searush]

"pippy" ? "has our backs"? I thought these might be mistypes but I couldnt work out what was being mistyped. Then I thought that they must be local expressions in some part of the country though I've never heard them before. Can you explain please?

Pippy = petty, I would guess

"has our backs" is a Services phrase & entirely self-explanatory, in case English isn't your mother tongue, it means "who is looking after us"

Were you being deliberately obtuse with your question?