rays
Well-Known Member
Looking to go to Holland next week to view Jeanneau from White Whale Yatchbrokers. Does anyone have knowledge of this broker or can offer any comment/advice about buying in Holland specifically?
Dutch Yacht Broker-anyone have a view on buying in Holland?
- Thread starter rays
- Start date
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Don't know of this particular broker, but we bought in Holland last year.
If you have any specific questions about the Dutch purchase procedure or surveys (quite different from the UK) feel free to PM me
If you have any specific questions about the Dutch purchase procedure or surveys (quite different from the UK) feel free to PM me
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Be very careful with the standard HISWA sales contract. If you would like an English translation, let me know.
Dutch surveys can be a bit on the thin side too.
Dutch surveys can be a bit on the thin side too.
trouville
N/A
Dutch boats like the Danish are sometimes economicaly kept!!The scots in comparison throw their money around!!
You can try hear: http://www.botenbank.nl/
Dutch isent so hard to get the idea! I learnt Flemish becouse allthe Dutch speak perfect English or really good with a Dutch accssent!! In Belgium they also speak English but are happy to speak Flames which give a foriegener a chance to learn!!
The prices are what the Dutch ask and you can haggle do your own survey unless your thinking of an expensive yacht over say 20.000 euros or £10.000
Look at that site it will give you a good idea of whats available and you can specify only private sales anyway have a look give you a good idea and its a good site!!
You can try hear: http://www.botenbank.nl/
Dutch isent so hard to get the idea! I learnt Flemish becouse allthe Dutch speak perfect English or really good with a Dutch accssent!! In Belgium they also speak English but are happy to speak Flames which give a foriegener a chance to learn!!
The prices are what the Dutch ask and you can haggle do your own survey unless your thinking of an expensive yacht over say 20.000 euros or £10.000
Look at that site it will give you a good idea of whats available and you can specify only private sales anyway have a look give you a good idea and its a good site!!
rays
Well-Known Member
Guapa and Michael,
Thanks for your help. We have an English translation of their contract already which seems very close to the standard ABYA contract. Would appreciate your advice about how the surveys differ from UK. I have only seen one Dutch survey which consisted of tick boxes and no narrative.
Did you pay the balance of the money prior to taking delivery?
Thanks for your help. We have an English translation of their contract already which seems very close to the standard ABYA contract. Would appreciate your advice about how the surveys differ from UK. I have only seen one Dutch survey which consisted of tick boxes and no narrative.
Did you pay the balance of the money prior to taking delivery?
michael_w
Well-Known Member
The fundamental differences between the average Brit cotract and the Dutch one are:
15% deposit.
The Vendor is obliged to carry out all repairs as specified by the surveyor and all listed equipment must work, unless the costs exceed 10% of the value of the vessel. Similarly, the purchaser is obliged to buy the vessel. Otherwise he loses is full 15% deposit.
To give you an example, I had a well respected sailing boat surveyed. The survey showed up considerable structural defects: Mast going through the bottom of the boat, a gap 10mm deep and 400mm long between the canoe body and the ballast keel. Oh, and knackered teak decks, and utterly inaccessable tankage to boot.
I could not agree on the costs with the vendor, as I was planning a circumnavigation, when all he was prepared to pay for was a quick patch up. Rather than throw good money after bad I pulled out and took my losses on the chin.
I note that the boat is still for sale.
If you want a survey with a bit of meat to it, send your own man over. Incidentally, I found the keel problem, the surveyor missed it completely.
15% deposit.
The Vendor is obliged to carry out all repairs as specified by the surveyor and all listed equipment must work, unless the costs exceed 10% of the value of the vessel. Similarly, the purchaser is obliged to buy the vessel. Otherwise he loses is full 15% deposit.
To give you an example, I had a well respected sailing boat surveyed. The survey showed up considerable structural defects: Mast going through the bottom of the boat, a gap 10mm deep and 400mm long between the canoe body and the ballast keel. Oh, and knackered teak decks, and utterly inaccessable tankage to boot.
I could not agree on the costs with the vendor, as I was planning a circumnavigation, when all he was prepared to pay for was a quick patch up. Rather than throw good money after bad I pulled out and took my losses on the chin.
I note that the boat is still for sale.
If you want a survey with a bit of meat to it, send your own man over. Incidentally, I found the keel problem, the surveyor missed it completely.
billiew
Well-Known Member
Several East coast surveyors are well used to going to Holland for clients.Always better to use one you know and trust.PM me if you need a couple of names
Swagman
Well-Known Member
Hi,
We purchased five years back in Holland and got international surveyors Ward and Mckenzie to do the survey. Very very thorough job (even down to taking it out for a sail).
PM me if you want contact info.
JOHN
We purchased five years back in Holland and got international surveyors Ward and Mckenzie to do the survey. Very very thorough job (even down to taking it out for a sail).
PM me if you want contact info.
JOHN
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Most of what michael_w says, but... it seems he's been taken for a ride.
Our experience:
1. Offer - when your offer is accepted, you have BOUGHT! Subject to survey means something completely different in Holland than it does here.
Most reputable brokers will be HISWA brokers and offer you a HISWA contract. IMHO it's protection well having. YOU appoint a surveyor recognised by HISWA.
Important here is the SALE price! If the survey shows defects that would cost more than 10% than the sale price to rectify, both buyer & seller can walk away. You will recover your deposit (minus costs).
If the survey shows defects and the cost would amount to less than 10% of the sale price to rectify, you have still bought! but seller has to rectify the defects to YOUR and your surveyor's satisfaction.
2. Deposit: what they can get away with I suppose - but we negotiated with the broker and settled on %5.
3. Balance: we transferred the balance to the broker two days before we went to pick up the boat. Funds had cleared the day we picked up.
4. Survey: we used Duursma & Versluis. They were very, very, very good! Dry survey took 4 hours and was followed by a 2 hour sea trail! Survey report was 26 pages. Having sailed Guapa for 8 months now I can't say he missed anything. Survey & sea trail cost €525 (+/- 350£).
As an aside - broker's comment at the end of the survey: At that price - if you don't buy her, I will. Haven't regretted it.
PS: we bought from De Valk. Very professional, whole process was plain sailing all the way.
Had we not bought the perfect boat we would consider doing it again.
Our experience:
1. Offer - when your offer is accepted, you have BOUGHT! Subject to survey means something completely different in Holland than it does here.
Most reputable brokers will be HISWA brokers and offer you a HISWA contract. IMHO it's protection well having. YOU appoint a surveyor recognised by HISWA.
Important here is the SALE price! If the survey shows defects that would cost more than 10% than the sale price to rectify, both buyer & seller can walk away. You will recover your deposit (minus costs).
If the survey shows defects and the cost would amount to less than 10% of the sale price to rectify, you have still bought! but seller has to rectify the defects to YOUR and your surveyor's satisfaction.
2. Deposit: what they can get away with I suppose - but we negotiated with the broker and settled on %5.
3. Balance: we transferred the balance to the broker two days before we went to pick up the boat. Funds had cleared the day we picked up.
4. Survey: we used Duursma & Versluis. They were very, very, very good! Dry survey took 4 hours and was followed by a 2 hour sea trail! Survey report was 26 pages. Having sailed Guapa for 8 months now I can't say he missed anything. Survey & sea trail cost €525 (+/- 350£).
As an aside - broker's comment at the end of the survey: At that price - if you don't buy her, I will. Haven't regretted it.
PS: we bought from De Valk. Very professional, whole process was plain sailing all the way.
Had we not bought the perfect boat we would consider doing it again.
thalassa
Well-Known Member
I've never heard of this broker, but I see on their website that they set up shop only in 2004, so experience doesn't come into the equation.
The "botenbank" site Trouville mentions is excellent, but is dedicated to private sellers, not brokers. Add 10 % to the average price for broker's prices.
To all the above advice I've only to add that if the boat is in a commercial marina, it could very well be that the marina is entitled to 2 - 5 % of the asking price . Normally, the seller has to pick up this tab. But even Dutch sellers are not always aware of this, and it IS uncommon, so it's worth asking.
Also, I've seen different versions of the HISWA contract. Last time, I've had one to which about a full page of amendments and extra stipulations were added.
The "botenbank" site Trouville mentions is excellent, but is dedicated to private sellers, not brokers. Add 10 % to the average price for broker's prices.
To all the above advice I've only to add that if the boat is in a commercial marina, it could very well be that the marina is entitled to 2 - 5 % of the asking price . Normally, the seller has to pick up this tab. But even Dutch sellers are not always aware of this, and it IS uncommon, so it's worth asking.
Also, I've seen different versions of the HISWA contract. Last time, I've had one to which about a full page of amendments and extra stipulations were added.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Guapa, you were lucky..... I used the same surveyors. Not a firm I'll use again. Not quite as incompetent as a certain German surveyor from Flensburg but that's another story.
The boat in question was an Oyster 37, owned by Hetterschijt Jachtmakelaars, the brokers who had taken it in part exchange.
I'm sure things can go smoothly, but having lost a fair amount of money, I would not like to hear of any forumite suffering the same fate.
The boat in question was an Oyster 37, owned by Hetterschijt Jachtmakelaars, the brokers who had taken it in part exchange.
I'm sure things can go smoothly, but having lost a fair amount of money, I would not like to hear of any forumite suffering the same fate.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Guapa saw / looked at the same boat Oy 37
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Quite - I came, I saw and I walked away.
She seemed to suffer from the same keel/bottom problem you told me about.
As I understood it at the time the Oyster 37 belonged to the broker's father.
She seemed to suffer from the same keel/bottom problem you told me about.
As I understood it at the time the Oyster 37 belonged to the broker's father.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Yep, that's the one. If they get stuck with her as an albatross, I'll be happy.
As an aside to the Dutch contract, If it ain't on board at the time of survey, it isn't included in the sale. That boat had been stripped of any thing useful. Even the heating had been removed. There was hardly a fender or a decent bit of rope to her name.
As an aside to the Dutch contract, If it ain't on board at the time of survey, it isn't included in the sale. That boat had been stripped of any thing useful. Even the heating had been removed. There was hardly a fender or a decent bit of rope to her name.
ean_p
Well-Known Member
We bought in the Netherlands some six years ago and our contract and experience was that of Guapa's, indeed to a serious buyer then the contract seems to be in your favour. we differed in our surveyor experience in that though he never missed a great deal, he failed to really highlight those points that would in time cost. he was expensive too. with hindsight because of the contract terms we would/should have taken a UK surveyor and believe that almost any report would / should save us his fee. Overall a good place to look.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
I doubt if getting a UK surveyor would make a lot of difference. You are still bound by the HISWA rules.
A survey in the UK can help you knock bits of the agreed price, but not much more. In Holland, the agreed price stays - the only argument is how and to what standard the seller rectifies any faults.
Like I said earlier, I found our surveyor to be very good. When it came to rectification, he really argued OUR case. None of this pretending to be impartial nonsense.
Before we decided on Guapa we seriously looked at another boat over here. The survey - by a supposedly very reputable surveyor - was full of caveats and get out clauses. The survey could be summarised as follows: She might float, but don't hold me to it.
A survey in the UK can help you knock bits of the agreed price, but not much more. In Holland, the agreed price stays - the only argument is how and to what standard the seller rectifies any faults.
Like I said earlier, I found our surveyor to be very good. When it came to rectification, he really argued OUR case. None of this pretending to be impartial nonsense.
Before we decided on Guapa we seriously looked at another boat over here. The survey - by a supposedly very reputable surveyor - was full of caveats and get out clauses. The survey could be summarised as follows: She might float, but don't hold me to it.
wagenaar
Well-Known Member
The Valk is a long time established dutch broker firm. I bought from them in 1987. Then they were in Loosdrecht. I recall they also have an office in France, Cannes I believe.
asj1
Well-Known Member
Bought from a Dutch Broker in Breskens almost three years ago. Didn't bother with a survey - as I figured that at that price if everything worked and if I was happy to sail it across the N Sea then it was a bargain almost no matter what was wrong -( I did spend three hours going over everything very carefully). I just got a contract from the broker and sailed her back. No problems subsequently, so I wouldn't make a big deal about it, but I guess it depends how much you are going to spend!
Andrew
Andrew
homa
Well-Known Member
Dutch surveyor
I bought in Holland late 2005 and also used Dursma & Versluis surveyors
Very thorough survey, they spotted an awful lot of things and enabled me to obtain a big cut in the asking price.
Long survey with plenty of photos and everything covered.
Did the survey when I wanted it done and phoned me in the UK after completing the survey with a list of the main points.
Would definitely use them again, and have no reservations in recommending them.
more thorough than some UK surveyors I've used in the past
I bought in Holland late 2005 and also used Dursma & Versluis surveyors
Very thorough survey, they spotted an awful lot of things and enabled me to obtain a big cut in the asking price.
Long survey with plenty of photos and everything covered.
Did the survey when I wanted it done and phoned me in the UK after completing the survey with a list of the main points.
Would definitely use them again, and have no reservations in recommending them.
more thorough than some UK surveyors I've used in the past
