Drogue and chain length

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neil1967

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I will be crossing Biscay later this year in our Oyster 406 and intend to buy a parachute drogue (probably Jimmy Green) in case we meet unforecast bad weather (and potentially in case we need to enter a portuguese port in bad weather in extremis, for stability). The PBO report into yacht drogues a few years ago stated that many of them were improved by the addition of a short length of chain between the warp and the drogue, so the simple question is - what is a short length? 1m? 2m? 5m? Grateful for info from anyone who has a para drogue, and even better from any one who has used one in anger :-)
 
Depends upon Drogue size and chain weight.

It is there to help keep drogue down.

I would suggest circa 5M of 10mm chain.

Erring on the safe side.
 
For your stated uses, I would question if a para anchor is even the best option.

My first choice in your situation would be a Jordan series drogue. It has the flexibility for both your intended purposes.
 
I don't think entering a port in extremis with a parachute sea anchor or even a Jordan series drogue hanging off the back would be a very good idea. You want manouverability and control. Think about trying to round up into the wind which you may well have to do on entry.
 
I'm not looking to use a para anchor, I'm looking to use a para drogue - same function as a Jordan series drogue, just a different method of achieving the same aim.
 
Neil1967, this may not be a very convenient idea - you can better judge that - but my recollection is that one of the many tricks and techniques that RNLI skippers have up their sleeves - and possibly other nations' coxn's too - is that of towing a 'suitable' drogue against power when needing to enter a harbour with big breaking swell, to keep the ends pointed the right way.

There are several of those along the north west coast of Spain, as the pilot books attest.

That technique presupposes plenty of power to the prop. Do bear in mind that the loads can be enormous, when a big breaking sea picks up 10 tons of Oyster and hurls it landwards at some speed.

You might find it helpful to discuss your interest with a couple of such experts....
 
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neil1967 said:
I will be crossing Biscay later this year in our Oyster 406 and intend to buy a parachute drogue (probably Jimmy Green) in case we meet unforecast bad weather (and potentially in case we need to enter a portuguese port in bad weather in extremis, for stability). The PBO report into yacht drogues a few years ago stated that many of them were improved by the addition of a short length of chain between the warp and the drogue, so the simple question is - what is a short length? 1m? 2m? 5m? Grateful for info from anyone who has a para drogue, and even better from any one who has used one in anger :-)
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Not quite the same thing, and not used in anger, but for what its worth I have a Para-Tech Delta Drogue -also tested in the PBO article - which i bought 2nd hand from a similar sized boat on my Colvic Countess 33. It came with 3m of 10mm chian attached by the previous owner who had done at least 1 single-handed Atlantic return crossing with it aboard his boat.
 
A para anchor over the stern will almost prevent forward movement by design; the shockloads will be substantial. A drogue will reduce forward movement and if on a long warp will help keep the stern smoothly aligned to the required direction of forward travel, and also be in a different wave pattern from the one that lifts and turns the boat.

The Jordan drogue (Zoidberg's choice) has shown there are weaknesses in the design. Both Ming Ming (Roger Taylor) and the GGR entrant, Susie Goodall,experienced failure believed to be related to material deterioration and stress over a long period of use. That should not happen in a short controlled run into a harbour, though one might question that tactic in contrast with maintaining sea room for a few days till the weather improves.


FWIW I have a Sea Brake (aka Abernethy) drogue, and have 3m of 10mm chain at the far end. That's 7kg to keep the drogue low in the water and provide a bit of a 'tail'.
 
In those conditions many ports on that coast will be closed to prevent loss of life, if you do enter against the advice of the harbour it is very likely your boat will be impounded. It happened when I was there (all be it a few years ago)

You just don't go for those harbours, head out to sea. We hove to for two nights in Biscay in November and entered Coruna with a +10m swell running. We used warps and chain in deep sea breaking waves / surfing but in shallower water there is more water moving and being rolled there is a much greater possibility. Would you chance being rolled or just head out to sea? Useful at sea but close inshore when you might want to abort and need speed I don't think so.
 
Having been long distance sailing Jordan series drogues are the most popular and do use chain. We had a steel ketch with a long keel and cut away forefoot with the rudder on the keel so we carried a para anchor that was never used. They should not be used on fin keels because going backwards will tear the rudder off. If you want to buy a parachute drogue they are tested here: https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/which-drogue-should-you-buy-25543
 
sarabande said:
The Jordan drogue (Zoidberg's choice) has shown there are weaknesses in the design. Both Ming Ming (Roger Taylor) and the GGR entrant, Susie Goodall,experienced failure believed to be related to material deterioration and stress over a long period of use. .
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Think you're a bit off the mark there, Roger made a mistake >
http://www.thesimplesailor.com/articles.html

Mingming has always carried a Jordan Series Drogue, and, as long as I am sailing her, always will.
..
I also had the opportunity, caused by a silly mistake on my part that lost me the JSD, to compare its performance against that of a large single drogue.
..
I am now halfway through building my second JSD for this year's Atlantic crossing. I would never go to sea without one. Nor should you.
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That seems a fairly standard reply from anyone who has been in survival conditions with a JSD

Susie had the bridle part apparently, may well have happened with a more conventional drogue, we'll probably never know.

Though it's not really the tool for conditions which the majority of us will ever see where it isn't down to survival, just very windy and rough.
One of the better books IMHO is https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01G9Y2O2M/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Much more looking at the big picture than buying a gadget then forget about everything else.

And completely agree with Neil, even considering going into an Atlantic Portuguese port when the swell is really up is a dangerous idea. Better to think the exact opposite IMHO. When it's nasty it's hard to think clearly, those thought processes from land will rise to the surface despite with a desperation just make it stop even when the conditions say don't .
 
While those who go sailing in the southern ocean or race small boats built on a shoe-string single handedly across the Atlantic all say that a drogue is an essential piece of kit, I think it extremely unlikely that it would be needed on a crossing of Biscay by a well found boat in summer with two or more aboard. This is backed up by the AZAB competitors, none of whom have ever needed to use one afaik. I have carried a JSD half way round the world and on 15 or more voyages longer than a Biscay crossing, and never deployed it despite a couple of F10 moments.

I hate to 'advise' anyone to skimp on safety, but Biscay is really not that far offshore: even going outside Ushant direct to Cape Finisterre it will only take 72 hours for a 41 foot boat, and a storm of such ferocity which hadn't been forecast more than 3 days in advance would be extremely unlikely. One can have a jolly unpleasant time in any piece of water and should never be over confident but imho with modern forecasting, and modern boats which can sail or motor upwind, Biscay is no longer as scary a place as it used to be.

PS: I have 6m of 8mm chain on the far end of my JSD (which mostly lives in the shed - see above!)
 
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jdc said:
I hate to 'advise' anyone to skimp on safety, but Biscay is really not that far offshore: even going outside Ushant direct to Cape Finisterre it will only take 72 hours for a 41 foot boat, and a storm of such ferocity which hadn't been forecast more than 3 days in advance would be extremely unlikely. One can have a jolly unpleasant time in any piece of water and should never be over confident but imho with modern forecasting, and modern boats which can sail or motor upwind, Biscay is no longer as scary a place as it used to be.
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My thoughts entirely.
 
Sandy said:
My thoughts entirely.
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and mine, though I do carry a 'standard' drogue and have 3m of 10mm chain for my kedge anchor which I can use on the drogue.
As for entering port with a big swell running, that is definitely a no no. Most of the sailing along the Spain / Portugal coast is day sailing, so if a big swell is forecast then you stay put and don't go. If there is a swell running when you arrive from off shore, you head back out and sit it out.
 
Neil_Y said:
In those conditions many ports on that coast will be closed to prevent loss of life, if you do enter against the advice of the harbour it is very likely your boat will be impounded. It happened when I was there (all be it a few years ago)

You just don't go for those harbours, head out to sea. We hove to for two nights in Biscay in November and entered Coruna with a +10m swell running. We used warps and chain in deep sea breaking waves / surfing but in shallower water there is more water moving and being rolled there is a much greater possibility. Would you chance being rolled or just head out to sea? Useful at sea but close inshore when you might want to abort and need speed I don't think so.
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+1

There isn't a Portuguese port I would risk entering if closed and most have turns around breakwaters which would be impossible to negotiate towing a drogue. As said, stand well off. Forecasts for Biscay are so accurate these days, I've never considered a drogue "necessary" equipment.
 
Many thanks all. Your thoughts largely mirror mine - I would not chose to enter a portuguese port in a swell. As for the necessity to carry a drogue across Biscay, we will hopefully (in a few years) head across the Atlantic and perhaps beyond, so it makes sense to me to buy and carry it now, just in case, rather than buying it immediately prior to the Atlantic crossing. Thanks again.
 
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