Dr Led replacement bulbs

[Pincoya]

Does anyone have any experience of using Dr Led bulb replacements in Aqua Signal series 41 and 40 nav lights? I am toying with the idea of using them, especially the new tri colour masthead light and anchor light.

Paul

 

[KellysEye]

Sorry don't know the answer but I would think carefully about the fact they don't comply with COLREGS.

 

[GMac]

They don't?? Damn.

Any idea why?

 

[KellysEye]

There was a thread on LED's and my take on it was threefold:

- there are no LED lights with Coastguard (COLREGS) approval.

- There is only one LED that has nearly the light output of the normal bulb but it uses about the same power as the bulb.

- When bulbs fail they go out, you see it and change it. LED arrays fail by single (or more) diode, light output decreases but you wouldn't know by looking up from the deck. Thus unless LED manufacturers make the whole light fail when the first diode fails LED's will NEVER get approval.

I wouldn't touch LED's and would ask others not to. About 75% of our sailing is at night (it's cooler) and lights are critical to safety.

 

[Pincoya]

I'm not sure I can agree with you about col regs approval. Aqua signal sell a set of led nav lights which are approved by the USA coastguard and my understanding is that these replacement bulbs are also approved.

Please explain your comments concerning light output and share the product/item to which you refer. Where did you obtain this information?

Paul

 

[KellysEye]

As I said there was a long thread where SolarNeill gave a lot of explanation about LED's and mentioned Aquasignal - suggest searching on his posts you'll find it fascinating. In the meantime below are some of the things he said:

..............................................
Could you send me the certification details. There site contains no certification information. All the companies with known LED certified products make available this information.

I can not find any reference to any LAB, certification body or certification number. I also can not find any reference to significant patents or trademarks claimed on the web site. The info on the site is general and even spelt wrong USCG COLOREGS instead of USCG COLREGS

There is one press release that concerns only an ANCHOR light and still does not have the number or lab details.

Their claims below are odd as well. Since the <50m rules state at least 3 miles for every light not 2nm.



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Colored LED bulbs satisfy all brightness, distance (2 nm), and arc requirements set forth by the

US Coast Guard for vessels less than 50m (165 ft.) in length

* White LED bulbs satisfy all brightness, distance (2 nm), and arc requirements set forth by the

US Coast Guard



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Even if they do have certification, which I doubt, being certified to be the minimum standard does not make you anywhere near the equivalent of a 25W filament bulb.

2nm requires 4.3cd of light, 3nm requires 12cd and 5nm requires 52cd.
A standard 25W bulb is between 30 to 48cd and even a 10W bulb is 12 to 20cd.
So not worth considering as a comparison



The reason I doubt it is that after spending the money to be certified by an independent LAB no company would ignore that expenditure and not want to advertise it.



They are the good guys making true certified, sealed light fittings. Not bulbs to go in existing fittings, which is what the thread is about.

But they are only the minimum requirements of 3nm for the masthead version when Aquasignal sell a 25W light that is certified for 5nm. So no comparison. The others are 2nm.

Their marketing is a little suspect as they compare their lights to 60W of conventional bulbs (25W + 25W + 10W). However Aquasignal sell a port light that is certified for 2nm and ONLY has a 10W bulb!!

So again they are at least certified and legal, but not very honest about the lack of light output as they compare the lights by their published minimum output not the actual output.

"LEDs are several times more efficient at turning electricity into light" Not the whole story. The LED junction is more efficient but the realization of a complete light to work in a boat put lots of inefficiencies into the system. Unless designed correctly they have failure modes that are worse than Bulbs. The heat at the junction will severely degrade the life. Also white LEDs use a fluorescent principle that has much lower life than the LED junction.

If one of my bulbs fail it takes 2 minutes to swap and I'm back in business. (About 10 minutes for the steaming) If an LED fails then you send off for a complete new unit. In a close lightning situation LEDs would not survive the induced spikes.

If we redesigned the filament bulb so that it had the same amount of electronics as a LED and therefore the filament was run at its optimum temperature the light output would be far better. We could also design a fluorescent lamp replacement. Using backlight inverter technology from LCD screens. These are far more efficient than LEDs ever will be. So why has it not been done?

Simple reason is that safety should be simple and easy to mend.







I missed the statement: "To the eye it appears brighter"

This is a fallacy. A LED is a tiny point source that focuses onto the retina in a small spot. A filament is about 12mm long and so focuses to a strip on the retina.

The first point is STOP looking at high power point source lights with your eyes. It is not a good practice.

Compare a 3 stack LED with a filament. Assuming a generous 0.5mm spot for the LED (the lens is far from perfect) the light source is concentrated at least 8 times.

Therefore looking at a LED at close range will always look brighter than a long filament.


So I agree the ship lookout will see a brighter light as your mast head smashes against the bridge window. But at any real distance the size of the source will make no difference and the LED will be dimmer by miles (that is nm).


Please be safe and stop trusting what is on the internet. Unless it is sold through a company in the UK that can supply all the certification details it is a con. There are enough people out their who would gladly distribute a wonder light if it were true.

Again, comparing a product that makes the minimum standard to the "de facto" yachting standard of the 25W filament bulb is dangerous. If you want to hide then use 2nm bulbs if you want to survive use 25W bulbs.

I wonder how many crew will check what is in the lights before setting off in others boats?



They look good. Although trying hard to get approvals the can only claim it on a few models.

The seem also to claim <50m boat with only 2nm range!

Their 5nm light is the one I refer to as taking 21W for an equivalent 25W bulb. (Still no approval though)

Anyway the smaller approved ones still only conform to the minimum 1nm and so is in no way a comparison to a 25W bulb that in a steaming light will make 5nm.

Very nice products, for inland waterways etc. but who would ONLY want to be seen at 1nm by a ship? They are travelling 20knots so that is 3 minutes to contact. Going around with lights that dim in the Channel is the equivalent of jumping out from behind bushes in front of cars.




"sectors of light"

That a good point I had not thought they defeated the tricolour sectors.

A standard bulb has a filament in the centre. Specified to 1mm tolerance. So the angle of the R G & W sectors are perfect.

LED bulbs like these have an offset from the centre and the bulb segments are not registered with the outer lens segments in different light models. In other words the apparent source of light is not in the axial centre of the light but is in a ring.

So the light going through the white lens sector will be a wider angle than the regulations state. You will see white and green together as it fades between.

Therefore NO LED bulb replacement can ever be certified. (LED Bulb as opposed to a real LED Light unit)

 

[dickh]

Hi, I don't normally post on this board but spotted this in passing. Hella Marine do some LED nav lights, although only for the smaller craft which do seem to be approved if you read the info. Made in New Zealand, and approved by various authorities. I hope this doesn't confuse everyone even more!
See:- http://www.hellamarine.com/?a=3&t=3&View=FullStory&productID=659&pcid=162
Just reread the Hella website and, depending on the model, they need replacing either every 12 years or after 2000 hours when the light output degrades. They have an inbuilt diagnostic function. They look good but no prices........

 

[roly_voya]

I fitted these this spring. Yes they are certified to 2 miles in the aquasignals housing as direct replacment. Being a bulb they are easy to fit/change. They are sealed in a glass envelope so elements are not vunerable plus bayonet is gold plated. I have not measured brightness but observing the boat at anchor from aprox 1mile ours seamed the brightest light. It is posible that because the draw less current and are anyway not voltage sensative they may not suffer loss of performance due to cable length or batt state?

So far very pleased and well worth the cost

 

[Pincoya]

Thanks Roly_Voya

We are busy preparing for a trip back to UK and I have been trying to take in all that KellysEye has posted; a very forcefully argumented position.

I am not looking to compromise safety and would like to find a long lasting and practical replacement to the 25w bulbs that we presently use.

I will replace the mast head anchor light with a led bulb, these are commonly in use here and are very effective. The low draw when at anchor is a real bonus; many cruisers simply leave them switched on.

The steaming lights are not an issue and whatever the draw the engine more than delas with their demand. However, bulb life is an issue. A failing led will still emit some light but a blown bulb will not and needs to be replaced immediately, whatever the conditions.

The mast head light (tri colour) is one I would love to swap out for led. Low draw, intesity of light and the partial rather than complete loss of light would enable replacement at a convenient time rather than on a now or nothing basis; this too has its merits.

As for col regs! Many of the vessels we encounter have minimal lighting and few would satisfy the col regs. I don't much worry about CE certified kit so long as it provides a bright light which can be seen from a nominal 2 miles or so I am relatively happy. I have an ICOM M803 DSC SSB on board which does not qualify for CE marking either but which is possibly the best marine SSB available currently.

None of this means that I am laissez faire about regs, far from it, but sometimes regs and common sense do not go hand in hand. I'll worry about lights when I spot inspectors with luminescence measuring devices, until then I want to see and be seen in the moist practical way for me.

Thanks for everyone's posts, I'm still thinking.

Paul

 

[GMac]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, I don't normally post on this board

[/ QUOTE ]

2333 times /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway I'm now upset. I was hopeing to replace my 25W for an LED and save the power. We have limited generating, which isn't normally an issue but we have a long race (1200nm) shortly and I'm trying to get throgh without adding a genny just to run that bloody masthead light.

Cunning plan anyone ?

 

[zefender]

With limited power available, you're more likely to suffer dim filament or no light at all than not being seen with an LED tri-colour. I've had one for a few years and it shines very brightly indeed, and saves oddles of amps in the process.

 

[BrokerBen]

Just buy one of the replacement bulbs that are LED, fit it, then do a 360 around the boat perhaps in a marina and check yourself to see how it looks.

If there are no gaps, and it looks bright then you can satisfy yourself that for the trip they will be fine.

If you are not prepared to give them a try, or are nervous of it, then you're going to have to bite the bullet and fit normal bulbs, and go for more batteries or more generating like wind or solar power /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[ytd]

I have an LED stern light bought from the local chandelry that is much brighter than the filament one it replaced. Can't recall whether it was certified but it's still quite bright even when the batteries are down when the filament one would just be a yellow glow. I will change the bow lights for LED whe they fail.

 

[GMac]

I think I'll chuck an LED in and see how we go.

Tried sussing if they are 'legal' as race lights but no-one seems to know. The International rules are written "must be 25W" so that seems to be the issue, no "or equivalent".

You can use LED and be OK for Col Regs with a few small exceptions by the sound of it.

 

[tgpt21]

Where in the Collision regs does it say the wattage for a bulb? It gives distances and angles but nowhere can I find wattage and whether it should have a filament. What about vessels with no electricity which have oil lamps.

 

[tgpt21]

In fact the USCG (God bless their cotton socks) are so against the use of LEDs at sea that they are experimenting for one year the use of LEDs in navigation marks in USCG District 5 which is the NE coast of the US. US Notice to Mariners 35/07.

 

[mobeydick]

The Orca Green Marine range of LED nav lights are apparently (they claim) approved and used by USCG.

These are units, not lamp replacements though.

Incidently their tricolour uses 3 LEDs each with 120 degree viewing angle

 

[SVSirius]

I installed the DR LED replacement in our tricolor for the anchor light. It's the one we use the most. Works as advertised and visibility is fine. different color than the halogen though. Did not replace the tricolor bulb as if did not feel the amp/hrs consumed with how often we use it were worth the expense. I do have a large bank though so power consumption not the only driver.