theoldsalt
Active member
If you are advised to "approach downwind or down tide" would you expect to travel with wind/tide or against it?
I will explain why I ask after a few answers.
I will explain why I ask after a few answers.
Downwind/Down tide
- Thread starter theoldsalt
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MoodySabre
Well-known member
With
theoldsalt
Active member
To expand my question further.
Would you approach a mooring buoy with your vessel moving with wind/tide or against ? (simplify by discounting wind against tide)
Again my reason for asking will soon become clear.
Would you approach a mooring buoy with your vessel moving with wind/tide or against ? (simplify by discounting wind against tide)
Again my reason for asking will soon become clear.
mrming
Well-known member
Approach *from* down tide (or downwind) would make more sense. Obviously when mooring you nose up to the buoy against the tide (or the wind if that's currently the dominant force).
You clearly know the answer though so do enlighten us as to why you're asking?
You clearly know the answer though so do enlighten us as to why you're asking?
DJE
Well-known member
I would consider the advice and make my own decision about which way to approach. Not least because what he means by downtide might not be the same as what I mean.
theoldsalt
Active member
That's an interesting reply and the reason for my questions.
I have just been reading the July edition of "ALL AT SEA" newspaper(?) available free from my local chandlery.
In it is an "RYA Master class" on how to pick up a buoy under power.(Yes I know most buoys are not under power!)
The first advise in the article is :- "Your approach should be downwind or down tide ........."
Now I have always believed that downwind/down tide means "with" as MoodySabre says and that a buoy approach should be against the tide/wind.
So is the RYA Chief Instructor, Vaughan Marsh correct - is it a misprint or should he go on a refresher course on practical boat handling?
Or perhaps my advanced age is now getting the better of me and I should stop reading sailing literature.
P.S. The newspaper also contains an interesting article on Salvage Laws.
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fergie_mac66
Active member
probably pedantic grammar but guess approach from downtide/downwind
NormanS
Well-known member
I already took this up with Vaughan Marsh, with the suggestion that he either knew nothing about boat handling, or hadn't proof-read the article. He claimed it was the latter, and altered the on-line version.
My main reason for contacting him was because he in his RYA capacity, is still advocating lasooing mooring buoys, while at the same time, admitting that it causes damage to the mooring. Crazy, or what?
theoldsalt
Active member
Yes the addition of the word "from" makes the statement non ambiguous.
Steersman
New member
I would say the word "from" is "implicit" in the statement.
In my world I would say "I'm approaching from either down wind or up wind", and not going towards either of them.
and What a cracking little debate over the pedantics of the English language
In my world I would say "I'm approaching from either down wind or up wind", and not going towards either of them.
and What a cracking little debate over the pedantics of the English language
Leighb
Well-known member
Downwind and downside is scary, we were nearly taken out a couple of weeks ago when moored up in the River Yare by an inexperienced hirer who was doing just that. SWMBO saw him coming and was able to shout a warning and suggest that he should turn and come back against the 2knots or so current. He said thanks, and after he failed 2 or 3 times to turn we last saw him disappearing in the general direction of Yarmouth.
Davegriff
New member
I don't see how the avoidance of ambiguity could possibly be seen as 'pedantic'. The English language has evolved as it has with generally good reason.
jerrytug
N/A
Yes maybe you would, but someone else might be sure that the word "going" is implicit. So it should be written again to avoid ambiguity.
That's the trouble with experienced sailors writing instructions for beginners, they can't bring themselves to grasp just how foolproof and basic the instructions need to be.
sarabande
Well-known member
I would not think of using language capable of such misinterpretation in emergency plans.
If the intention is to reduce the speed and energy of the approach, then the instructions need qualifying, as JT suggests, to make the direction of approach beyond doubt. Part of the trouble is that "down" can be used as an adverb and a preposition, with a significant change in the underlying (or should that be "downlying" ?) meaning.
If the intention is to reduce the speed and energy of the approach, then the instructions need qualifying, as JT suggests, to make the direction of approach beyond doubt. Part of the trouble is that "down" can be used as an adverb and a preposition, with a significant change in the underlying (or should that be "downlying" ?) meaning.
SimonFa
Well-known member
I was taught to see which way the other boats were lying and approach from the same direction. This helps decide which is king, wind or tide. In the unlikely absence of other boats or indicators assume tide is king.irstbtime round.
Simondjuk
Active member
Surely the words "into the wind" and "into the tide" would have avoided any possible remaining ambiguity had the correct "from downwind/downtime" been used in the first instance.
The fact that the article contained the wrong wording shows that it was poorly written and proof read. The fact that it was written using terms which are open to misinterpretation even if they had been worded correctly shows that it was written with little thought.
The fact that a 'masterclass' was explaining (wrongly as it turns out) such basics shows that it wasn't a masterclass at all.
The fact that the article contained the wrong wording shows that it was poorly written and proof read. The fact that it was written using terms which are open to misinterpretation even if they had been worded correctly shows that it was written with little thought.
The fact that a 'masterclass' was explaining (wrongly as it turns out) such basics shows that it wasn't a masterclass at all.
DJE
Well-known member
My instinct would always be to approach with the boat moving against the tide.
That way you still have flow across the rudder when the boat is brought to a stop relative to the buoy.
That way you still have flow across the rudder when the boat is brought to a stop relative to the buoy.
guernseyman
Well-known member
Why not try it both ways, and see which is best?
prv
Well-known member
I would understand it to mean "approach travelling with the tide / wind". Answers discussing what the poster would actually do seem to have missed the point of the question. Obviously there are very few circumstances where you'd actually want to approach downwind and downtide.
Pete
Davegriff
New member
And I'm one of those who have lost mooring bouys to this damned awful lasooing practise. I would go so far as to suggest there are more than a few within the RYA ranks who know little about boating. From what I see of the activities of the RYA management, they're way more interested in monetary profit and self-glorification than any sort of useful assistance towards sailors.