Downturn

[Crabman]

With the down turn in the second hand market trying to sell a yacht or anything to do with yachting, are all the professionals ,surveyors , yards , brokers, etc adjusting there fees acordingly until it picks up ?

 

[Seajet]

There is the Catch 22 snag that if there are less customers, the professionals have to increase their prices to make a living...

 

[Crabman]

I dont get that ,surely it would be better to lower prices and get more work, not put prices up.

 

[little shack]

if people are feeling the pinch the numbers buying a boat may drop.those with boats will be trying to get value for £ and shopping around,those with the best deals will come through the least scathed.

 

[prv]

I dont get that ,surely it would be better to lower prices and get more work, not put prices up.

Only if there are lots of people who would buy your service if only it cost a little less. That may or may not be the case.

Pete

 

[Crabman]

What amazed me is going into a chandlery seing articles slashed in price.So the mark up was insane in the beginning . When I bough my last yacht I went private as the broker would not budge on his fees ,surveyor I shopped around and used the one I always do . Used a yard for certain things and was happy with there services and pricing.
So have the profesionals taken on the fact that things are tight or are they still charging stupid prices .
I would say brokers no same fee
chandleries yes discounts available
surveyors yes some are still way overpriced
yards ?

 

[Neil_Y]

What downturn?

Discounts don't always reflect margins, having worked in retail for many years, there are many times when you need to shift stock or raise cash, fashion, clothing and shoes were always a tricky ones as you are left with odd sizes and old colours/designs, I would sometimes sell below cost. Electronics don't get the same margins but most retail items will be a 50% margin before vat. After working in Kite/roller blade/skate/clothing shops, I ran a few outdoor shops selling maps to boots, and then set up a chain of mobile phone outlets. I don't miss it!

Now in the marine market top end products are not price sensitive, delivery times have the biggest effect on cost when ships/subs etc are dry docked.

But the yachties are always looking for bargains!

 

[FishyInverness]

What downturn?

Discounts don't always reflect margins, having worked in retail for many years, there are many times when you need to shift stock or raise cash, fashion, clothing and shoes were always a tricky ones as you are left with odd sizes and old colours/designs, I would sometimes sell below cost.

+1, There is a perception that a hefty discount means that the chandleries are vastly inflating prices which really isn't the case. If you work in retail you'll know that there's an RRP that the supplier indicates (which hardly any chandlery sells at, incidentally, usually at least 10% less in order to be competitive) and the supplier gives the retailer a discount based on that RRP. A lot of the time a massive discount simply means the retailer (in chandlery or anything else) wants to cut the amount of stock sitting in a warehouse or top shelf to free up space or liquidate cash for a new product.

You'll find that most retail stores are cutting their margin in the current circumstances and that the ethos is tending towards a high volume lower profit selling rather than low volume higher profit approach.

That's a retail persepctive though, brokerage, etc, is a very different animal.

 

[Jim@sea]

With the down turn in the second hand market trying to sell a yacht or anything to do with yachting, are all the professionals ,surveyors , yards , brokers, etc adjusting there fees acordingly until it picks up ?

There is no Downturn in the second hand market when the boat is being sold on Brokerage. The Brokerage Firm doesn't have any money at risk. I have my eye on a Cuddy Type Power Boat (on Brokerage) Its £25.000. It has been the same price for 12 months. I offered a deal in PX where I offered £15,000 plus my existing boat at £10,000 but they were not interested.
The problem is that they would have to do some work for a change. I would have thought that they would have considered buying the Cuddy Boat at £22000, taking in my boat after haggling the price down to £9,000, making me pay £16,000 so that my boat would stand them at £6000. then Retailing it at £11,000, thus giving them £5000 profit, for a bit of work and If I was giving them £16000 plus my boat their capital outlay would only have been £6000 taking them to £22000 to buy the Cuddy Boat.
They could not even get off their bottom to come and have a look at my boat, probably thought it was beneath them!!!
I sold my boat privatly at £10600.
But of course Boat Brokers are not Car Dealers (like wot I was) and in the meantime thousands of Boats are up for sale with no movement because nobody does deals anymore. Am I wrong ???.

 

[Nicholas123]

With the down turn in the second hand market trying to sell a yacht or anything to do with yachting, are all the professionals ,surveyors , yards , brokers, etc adjusting there fees acordingly until it picks up ?

What downturn in the second hand market?
I am trying to buy a boat & all I am experiencing is boats sitting around with owners asking the earth & when you make an offer the broker refuses to pass it onto the client

 

[Nicholas123]

There is no Downturn in the second hand market when the boat is being sold on Brokerage. The Brokerage Firm doesn't have any money at risk. I have my eye on a Cuddy Type Power Boat (on Brokerage) Its £25.000. It has been the same price for 12 months. I offered a deal in PX where I offered £15,000 plus my existing boat at £10,000 but they were not interested.
The problem is that they would have to do some work for a change. I would have thought that they would have considered buying the Cuddy Boat at £22000, taking in my boat after haggling the price down to £9,000, making me pay £16,000 so that my boat would stand them at £6000. then Retailing it at £11,000, thus giving them £5000 profit, for a bit of work and If I was giving them £16000 plus my boat their capital outlay would only have been £6000 taking them to £22000 to buy the Cuddy Boat.
They could not even get off their bottom to come and have a look at my boat, probably thought it was beneath them!!!
I sold my boat privatly at £10600.
But of course Boat Brokers are not Car Dealers (like wot I was) and in the meantime thousands of Boats are up for sale with no movement because nobody does deals anymore. Am I wrong ???.

No.Brokers seem to be holding everyone to ransom it seems to me because if you are trying to sell your boat it is not the broker that is paying the mooring fee they have nothing to risk & everything to gain.The seller must be being crucified in many instances for putting their boat in the hands of a broker.

 

[Crabman]

All I know is that I will not be using brokers in the future when I go to sell my boat. I can do a better job. With the money saved that will give me a barganing tool for the buyer. As to no downturn have a look at this http://www.mint.com/blog/trends/the-worlds-biggest-debtor-nations-102011/

 

[Boo2]

No.Brokers seem to be holding everyone to ransom it seems to me because if you are trying to sell your boat it is not the broker that is paying the mooring fee they have nothing to risk & everything to gain.The seller must be being crucified in many instances for putting their boat in the hands of a broker.

It's true that the broker won't accept any risk, but there again it's not his boat is it ? As for storage fees, I paid around £20pw to keep my boat on the brokers' hardstanding after purchase which compares very well with what it would have cost anywhere else.

It's also true that any agent (house agents as well as yacht brokers) will care less about gaining the maximum price than they do about making a sale, this is because they only get a percentage of the percentage increase which is generally a small sum.

Fwiw, I thought Dickies in Pwllheli were very good in the way they helped me buy my boat and have no hesitation in recommending them.


Boo2

 

[Tranona]

There is no Downturn in the second hand market when the boat is being sold on Brokerage. The Brokerage Firm doesn't have any money at risk. I have my eye on a Cuddy Type Power Boat (on Brokerage) Its £25.000. It has been the same price for 12 months. I offered a deal in PX where I offered £15,000 plus my existing boat at £10,000 but they were not interested.
The problem is that they would have to do some work for a change. I would have thought that they would have considered buying the Cuddy Boat at £22000, taking in my boat after haggling the price down to £9,000, making me pay £16,000 so that my boat would stand them at £6000. then Retailing it at £11,000, thus giving them £5000 profit, for a bit of work and If I was giving them £16000 plus my boat their capital outlay would only have been £6000 taking them to £22000 to buy the Cuddy Boat.
They could not even get off their bottom to come and have a look at my boat, probably thought it was beneath them!!!
I sold my boat privatly at £10600.
But of course Boat Brokers are not Car Dealers (like wot I was) and in the meantime thousands of Boats are up for sale with no movement because nobody does deals anymore. Am I wrong ???.

You probably are wrong - or misunderstand the relationships. A broker has no financial interest in the boat - the boat belongs to the private owner. Very few brokers are interested in becoming dealers - that is buying and selling on their own account - least of all to facilitate a sale of a boat they do not own. Buying and selling boats on your own account is a high risk business that requires substantial capital to finance stock and the dealer is then governed by consumer law which leaves him open to future claims by a dissatisfied buyer.

As you have discovered the market is flat - few buyers many of whom think this is a time to screw a seller, and sellers who are reluctant to part with their property for the price that is on offer. So it is stalemate and will only change if general economic conditions change.

You only have to look back 5 years to see what a bouyant market looks like - plenty of buyers and sellers, plenty of finance available, lots of deals. Now, few buyers, few sellers, limited finance, no deals.

Don't blame the intermediary, they can only respond to the environment as they find it.

 

[Nicholas123]

All I know is that I will not be using brokers in the future when I go to sell my boat. I can do a better job. With the money saved that will give me a barganing tool for the buyer. As to no downturn have a look at this http://www.mint.com/blog/trends/the-worlds-biggest-debtor-nations-102011/

I agree to not using a broker.I sold my boat for free with encouragement from people in this forum a few months ago in two weeks flat & I am as chuffed as nuts.
The downturn business is a difficult issue.You originally said the second hand market so this is complicating it somewhat.I have a brother that is the chief exec' & part owner of a pretty impressive little International company servicing the super rich & selling yachting/marine type equipment all round the world & he reckons business is booming.
I'm not sure what any of this means except that from your link our borrowing looks dia & we just have to get on with it.I still want a boat even if the world comes to an end tomorrow!

 

[Nicholas123]

It's true that the broker won't accept any risk, but there again it's not his boat is it ? As for storage fees, I paid around £20pw to keep my boat on the brokers' hardstanding after purchase which compares very well with what it would have cost anywhere else.

It's also true that any agent (house agents as well as yacht brokers) will care less about gaining the maximum price than they do about making a sale, this is because they only get a percentage of the percentage increase which is generally a small sum.

Fwiw, I thought Dickies in Pwllheli were very good in the way they helped me buy my boat and have no hesitation in recommending them.


Boo2

Without going into specifics it is very hard to compare one situation with another.Round here I'm not aware of brokers that own hard standing or moorings.It can vary from less than a hundred quid a year to moor a twenty five foot boat to several thousand pounds & the only thing that seems to be driving the market is when owners are in financial difficulty & can no longer pay expensive mooring costs.

 

[Robin]

What downturn in the second hand market?
I am trying to buy a boat & all I am experiencing is boats sitting around with owners asking the earth & when you make an offer the broker refuses to pass it onto the client

Perhaps the owner has given the broker an absolute minimum figure and asked that he doesn't bother him with offers less than that. Otherwise I believe the broker is obliged to pass on any offers, however ridiculous.

There are a lot of people about who think that all sellers are so desperate they will consider any price however ridiculous just to get a sale, I'm afraid that is mostly a wrong assumption. The fact that a boat appears to have been for sale for a long time is irrelevant. The owner may be looking to move up, but if his own boat doesn't sell then simply waits until it does, or not as the case will be.

We sold our boat in just 6 weeks through a broker. I had expected it to take more like 6 months and was actually a bit miffed that we in effect lost a season's use, because in our case our next purchase was to be in the USA but not until now.

On the buying side, a broker in the USA told me lots of people put their boats up for sale at high prices, almost as soon as they have purchased them, on the off chance that if an idiot arrives with that money they will sell but otherwise it can just sit on the books. As a result you will often see boats for sale with a comment 'genuinely for sale, offers considered'.

So we have both sold and bought in the last 20 months, both times through a broker and both selling and buying prices were fair and accepted by all.

 

[Crabman]

Without going into specifics it is very hard to compare one situation with another.Round here I'm not aware of brokers that own hard standing or moorings.It can vary from less than a hundred quid a year to moor a twenty five foot boat to several thousand pounds & the only thing that seems to be driving the market is when owners are in financial difficulty & can no longer pay expensive mooring costs.

So will marina's adjust prices accordingly. That would be a result.