Does PC Nav software replace a Chartplotter?

[[2574]]

I plan to re-equip our "new to us" yacht with electronics (Radar/Chartplotter & possibly VHF DSC). I've no experience of PC Nav software but a little web research suggests that PC Nav would effectively replace the dedicated chartplotter unit.

I've a "demoted" dell laptop that could be assigned to boat nav work and with the Nav software rrp at about £400 this looks to be an economic way of providing chartplotter functionality. I would want to repeat the plotter between chart table and cockpit so that might be an issue.

Am I right thinking that Chartplotters are replaced by PC Nav?

Rob

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[pcb]

If you simply look at functionality then yes, PC based plotters are pretty much the same as dedicated plotters.

However from a hardware perspective there are some differences.

Many laptops including dells require more than 12 volts and often rely on an inverter. Dedicated plotters remain in spec with your 12 volt system and do not hammer your service batteries.

The higher end PC based plotting solutions support a wide range of chart media. You can choose to change your plotting package without writing off what you have spent on charts. Dedicated plotters are constrained here. For example if you purchase CMAP NT+ cartridges for a Furuno system the media is specific (Furuno FP) to that plotter.

Most dedicated plotters are water resistant and designed to meet some crazy IPX specification. Most laptops will not stand up to being in the boot of your motor as you whiz over a fly-over on the A13.

I have setup many laptops for people who use them as plotters while sailing. Most “non technical” folk I have spoken with prefer dedicated units; they view them as a natural extension of their existing equipment. Most “techies” use the laptop for a lot more than plotting, from dynamically working out polar curves to watching movies.

I myself have both. I very rarely get the PC out of its box. It is mainly used for passage planning in a comfy chair. Finally, there is a lot more that can/will go wrong with a laptop, especially if you rely on it.


Regards

Paul

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Rob,

Yes it can be a replacement for a chartplotter...

I've been exploring exactly the same options....

As I see it....

Repeating is the big (expensive) problem....

Advantages of PC system - more complete nav package... better functionality than basic chartplotter - bigger display - more complete integration with other instruments eg radar, log etc
Disadvantages - difficult to extend mouse and keyboard as well (is it any use without them?)... You'll need a waterproof screen for the cockpit to run as a second display and waterproof screens are REALLY expensive... system may crash at the most inopportune moment! and reboots are slow

Other options are a chartplotter at the nav table that can be re-positioned for the helm, either via multiple plugs, or by a board that swings out from the nav station into the companion way, and then a radar at the helm that also repeats to the chartplotter...

I also looked possibly using PC Nav at the chart table, radar at the helm and a PDA for out in the cockpit when needed, but challenges are finding system that uses the same cartography.. can't use cartridges as the data can't be offloaded to a drive, so restricted to one device at a time....... and secondly, you'll need a GPS unit to make it work, so PDA will cost realistically £300+...

Its all very complex.... there's a distinct lack of standards, and the genuinely networked stuff (ie not just NMEA), like HSB2 while looking very powerful is quite expensive...

I'm still exploring.... radar/pc integration looks promising, and with AIS just around the corner, it will be easy to upgrade a PC system, but probably tougher to do the same with a chartplotter...

Let us know what your conclusions are, as I am sure that many many people are contemplating the same issue right now...

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[[2574]]

Paul

That's useful, thanks.

Re "hammering the batteries" with a 240v supply requirement for the laptop. Two points:

1) I don't understand why an inverted voltage increases energy consumed - is this simply due to inverter inefficiency?

2) Why can't a get a transformer to provide the correct input V to the laptop? My laptop has a transformer "lump" that I plug in to 240v which presumably goes down to 6v or something for the laptop. Why can't I do this directly rather than going from 12v up to 240v (via inverter) and then back to 6v via laptop transformer? That MUST be inneficient.

Rob

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[[2574]]

Nas,

Thanks for that. Yes, I'll post my conclusion when I get to that stage. Re AIS - isn't it always the case that when upgrading something is always "just around the corner" and is three times the price of what it will be next year!

rob

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[SpottedBlue]

12 volt PC notebook power supply adapters regularly sell on eBay for less than £20, much safer than mains inverters and use less power
Three major advantages of PC's - much larger screen size; tidal passage planning can be used to optimise and reoptimise passages as conditions change - and calculate correct course with uncanny accuracy; planning and plotting can be carried out at home.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Do you worry about spilling your coffee on your laptop keyboard? Do you worry about it having a rough ride, would you pick it up and shake it? Do you have no worries about battery consumption?

If the answer to any of the above is yes forget the laptop for on passage use and tuck it away safely for passage planning and other uses (weatherfax if you have SSB, tides etc). Use it at the chart table under way and see what happens as you drip saltwater over it from your wet weather gear, sit in the cockpit and wonder what happens to the hard drive every time you drop off a wave, watch the battery volts drop rather faster than you hoped. Then curse Bill Gates as it freezes just as you approach the narrowest part of the channel in the fog, you know the bit, it's where the cross-tide is strongest just between the reefs on either side (L'Aberwrac'h NW France is the example quoted).

Or you could use a dedicated chart plotter which is immersion waterproof so will stand dollops of saltwater and can even be cockpit mounted, it doesn't have a hard drive to shake apart and can use 25% of the power the laptop needs.

We carry a laptop with passage planning, weatherfax, RTTY and tide software, but have 2 plotters with C-Map cartography for the going along use (oh and a Yeoman paper chart plotter too). Chart cartridges are compatible with both plotters and we can read them on the laptop and even set wpts, create routes etc on the laptop on board or at home then save them to a C-Map cartridge to transfer to both plotters.

It is a personal choice and this is a personal opinion. It has been discussed many times before so it is well worth doing a forum search to see previous responses from both sides of the argument.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Simple answer is that you can't transform DC which is provided by your power pack into the laptop. Transformers require alternating current (AC) to create magnetic flux between the primary and secondary coils.


<hr width=100% size=1>It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.

 

[dk]

Hi Rob
I've used a laptop for chart work on two Trans-Ats and not had a problem once I had perfected the setup, but I wouldn't want to rely solely on them. They are great for planning, weather, tides etc, but some software takes a lot of setting up and GPSs seem to be allergic to USB ports and USB/RS232 serial converters!
To be safe you need to run them off a small inverter, as this 'smoothes' any spikes from the incoming voltage and avoids multiple crashes when engine starting or switching on a heavy-duty water pump etc. I use a trusty 150W jobbie, but note that this draws some 7A from the batteries!
The benefits are the bigger screen and other uses - I had mine connected to the Iridium for email and weather charts. When cruising over a wide, fairly trouble-free sea area they are fine, but I wouldn't want to risk it crashing whilst I was approaching a dodgy coastline in the dark. I currently use a proprietory chart plotter with C-Map cartridges, then C-Map software on the laptop - mainly for planning.
Another plus is they make useful DVD players for quiet night at anchor, but more importantly for me, they allow me to download and edit pix from my digital camera.
Don't waste money on the latest or ruggedised models , most 3yr old ones will be fine if you buy a foam-lined case to put it in (Allow air space around the vents though). Also, try to get one with an RS232 serial port as this is much easier to set up. Dowload all the charts from the CD if you can - this allows much faster access/scrolling.
Whatever you choose, don't be tempted to leave the paper charts and pilot books at home!
Cheers, Duncan

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sunnyseeker]

Mine works fine using a Toshiba car cord, doesn't use much power, or we had to much as we had a towed generator.
used as a chart plotter when coastal and entering new harbours anchorages, and used for weather fax/text when at sea, sometimes hourly as the weather got worse. Screen size is very usefull for the weatherfax planning routes.
Put the key board in a plastic bag (open at the back where the cooling fan is) so rain and sea weren't a problem..dropped a few times, but stuck non slip mat to the bottom so it wouldn't slide around too much...and its back being used for work doing presentations after a year at sea. Somebody once said that Toshibas were quite robust?
Console mounted "marine" waterproof units that failed...GPS/Depth/Auto Helm/Engine panel all because they leaked.

<hr width=100% size=1>
http://www.sailonhoneypot.com/images/pict2255.jpg

 

[Talbot]

The notebook convertors sold on ebay do not normally meet the power requirements of the modern high end laptop (mine requires 4.5 amps, the one sold on ebay only provides 2.5) A suitable one is available from Maplin (at abt twice the price of the ebay version).

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Talbot]

The inverter:
if you need 5 amps from the inverter, then it draws 5 amps for one side of the curve, and 5 for the other side, if you then rectify back to dc you effectively lose the second side of the curve and thus consume 5 amps doing nothing other than create heat!

DC to DC converter.

These are available from ebay and also from maplins. Most of them have a top voltage of 13.8 volts so should not be run if the engine is charging at top voltage (14.4v) make sure that the converter you get has the amp requirement for your laptop as modern lapotops draw a lot of amps when working (one of mine needs 4.5 amps at 20v) Older laptops need less voltage and less amps. some people actually run the Fujitsu ones straight from 12v.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[Sunnyseeker]

I forgot...Biggest advantage of a laptop is that you can print off the charts for a particular passage as paper backups or cockpit use, and not worry about scriibling on them or getting them wet and soggy. I print off the charts required for a passage from PC software, at different scales, up to detailed pilotage charts of harbours, and they're all on A4 in a cheap plastic wallet, and thrown away on arrival. We carry a small printer that runs off an inverter, we can also do hard copies of weather faxes to study without using power, and can give copies to other boats in harbour.
You dont need a powerful laptop so you can get a couple at 100-200 pounds each. Best and most used bit of boat kit I have, wouldn't be without one now.

<hr width=100% size=1>
http://www.sailonhoneypot.com/images/pict2255.jpg

 

[[2574]]

There's 34 "roughty toughty" laptops for sale on ebay - but they're £750 reserve price. Performance spec is not good, but fine for nav software I'm sure.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....C_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores#ebayphotohosting

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Agreed, which is why we have the laptop and a printer on board and have a C-Map reader for the laptop to read the chart cartridges used in the more robust, Bill Gates free, waterproof low(er) power hungry plotters.....

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[claymore]

Never used a chartplotter
Claymore has 200 charts sat in a Toshiba laptop powered through an inverter. The Garmin handheld GPS talks happily through the Com Port and the little green icon faithfully makes its way across the chart on screen.
The laptop sits on a piece of Karrimat and is held down by a thick piece of shock cord which sits along the hinge between the keyboard and the screen.
I can also download my digital pictures and have the capability to use MS applications should I so choose. We don't have an internet connection as I don't want to communicate with anyone other than those on board. It will happily run MS applications should I want it to.
The benefit of Claymore is that she has a semi enclosed wheelhouse so the repeater issue is not a problem as the laptop sits to one side of the steering position.
Whenever one of thses posts appears someone will put the fear of God into the poster by talking about how much power these things use. My personal experience is that the power drain is not a problem and that after 8 - 12 hours of engineless sailing with sailing instruments on plus the 240v inverter, running on battery 2 - there is no problem and everything works fine.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple>regards
Claymore<font color=purple>
/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Ships_Cat]

We do much the same. Found our laptop draws around 2 amps (slightly less from memory) once battery is charged and that is with hard drive writing all the time (our software logs every NMEA sentence from the sensors, as it is aimed at commercial vessels).

Have recently taken to using scanned bit of charts in a PDA using its standard image viewing software as like a memory jogger in tight spots not familiar with - we don't have a cosy wheelhouse.

Have never had the PC stop on us except in the case of using one particular chart which seemed to always have a glitch in it of some kind that confused the PC - hardly the PC's fault, went away when used a different chart for that area.

Talbot - your loss of half the power theory is very bad science and may lead some astray, but as I am a cat now I no longer do explanations. But cats do know that lying beside a power supply's transformer with a half wave rectifier on it is no warmer than lying beside one with a full wave rectifier - perish the thought.

Regards

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Sans Bateau]

The Panasonic toughbook is TOUGH, I used to use one in the car. Often it would go airborn and hit the passenger footwell before you could catch it! It lasted ages.

Laptops in boats? Sorry, I'm not a luddite, or am I one of the real traditionalists. But I'm just looking forward to using a Yeoman on our boat, a mix of electronics and paper. Is'nt there a chance of making things just a bit to techy? The last thing I want to do at the weekend or on the summer cruise is to be looking at another computer screen. Maybe, just maybe when I got loads of money I might get a ploter.

Its another angle on my view that people with wooden boats like varnishing more than sailing, maybe people with all the electronics prefer 'electronics' to sailing.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[iangrant]

Oh no, its not for the sake of the electronics... the very nice computer screen is an excellent assistant navigator when you are knackered on a dark, wet, NE force 7 night through the nab channel and over Chi Bar..

Ian

<hr width=100% size=1>