Do I need to take the keel off?

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Amari

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At lift-out last week here in Turkey to replace sea-cock ( Wauquiez Pretorien 10.8m), I found, as expected, scratches and gouges on the lower keel, skeg and rudder. (Three months before we had hit rocks doing about 2 kts ) As the hull dried at lift-out a horizontal hairline crack appeared circumferentially about 1/3 down the fin keel, visible because it remained moist. Presumably this means water was escaping - moist, not trickling. The yard advised I should have the keel taken off at winter lay-up. We are back in the water now.
However the keel bolts in the bilges look sound (how do you test them?) and Amari has not taken in any water in the 3 months afloat since the event.
Grateful for forumites thoughts
 
If water is trickling out - and you are right that if the crack continues to weep after the rest of the hull is dry then water has got in somewhere - then there must be a void to hold it.

Presumably the crack is above the ballast weight? If so the ballast is hanging on a damaged support. Alternatively, if the ballast is moulded in to the keel, quite possibly water is now reaching the ballast. If it is iron or steel it will now be rusting. Rust takes more space than the metal it has come from, so will distort and blow the moulding out of shape, or even split it.

If the boatyard recommended having it dealt with it seems a bit unwise to have ignored it, at least without getting a second professional opinion while it was easily accessible. I think you are right to be worrying about it now.

The fact she has not taken any water suggests the bolts themselves survived the accident as indeed they should have done at 2kts, but there is no easy way of 'testing' them without either Xray equipment or physically removing them to check their condition. But if the keel moulding itself is maybe damaged, water could be now reaching the bolts where it did not before, again with the potential for problems from corrosion, electrolysis, or anaerobic pitting.
 
I think there is enough evidence there to justify further investigation. If you don't do it, you will worry about every little creak and groan that will fire up pictures of Hooligan V upside down minus keel, even though your boat is probably in better shape. My concern would be not what you can see, but what you can't. If you don't fix it now it could mean more trouble and expense later.
 
Are you fully insured, because if you are, you really must get the insurance company involved, if not already so. It would be useful to have some contemporaneous evidence of the grounding such as your ships log...... for the insurance company.

A friend had an experiance similar to this, which showed no problems till the haul out 18 months later, when the keel disapeared through the bottom. - because he involved the insurere at the time, there was no arguement at all (£25,000).
 
Many thanks for this unwelcome advice! I fear I was sweeping this under the carpet. I don't know nature of keel material/fastening to hull. I will definately get this work done at lay-up in 6 weeks. How quickly could the rust be happening? Is it likely to progress significantly in 6 weeks?
Does iron rust under water (without air)?
Addendum: just talked to broker who sold me the boat and has known her for several years here at Kusadasi. He believes keel moulded into hull, ie not like a modern Beneteau which he says is bolted on.. His guess is lead not iron. Amari was built 1985 and is pretty robust, having circumnavigated, if that has any meaning. (trying to reassure myself, very inconvenient to haul out and get work done now)
 
This Web Site gives the game away....A 3-ton keel, bolted externally to a deep stub, keeps the boat on its lines when the breeze pipes up, a long waterline ensures good speeds, and the deep, skeg-hung rudder provides excellent control.

Looks like the weeping is from the point where the keel meets the stub...perhaps merely shifted on the sealant bed??

Still needs a look at though - I'd drop the keel personally

Nick
 
Yes it seems that the keel is bolted on to the stub. ie the bottom of the keel is bolted to f/g molding which extends down deep to the top of the ballast. Presumably the keel ballast is cast iron and bolted on externally. You may have found what the ballast or bottom of the keel was made of when you looked at/treated the scratches. It could be lead but more likely cast iron both possibly covered with fibreglass.
So presumably the keel bolts are to be found way down deep into the f/g keel. Do you have very deep bilges at the keel area? Yes the tiny crack is probably at the joint of the ballast to the keel. This joint on many other boats is up at the hull bottom. The joint does give trouble with water ingress.

I would suggest that if it is cast iron simply painted not encased in f/g then it could be dropped off or lowered and the sealing replaced. Check the keel bolts at the same time, by fully removing one or more for inspection. However the dire warnings are not likely to eventuate if the keel has simply been stressed and the sealant broken.

You need to understand the construction of the keel. To understand what needs to be done but removal does seem appropriate. olewill
 
Many thanks indeed Nick. Useful website to aid any future sale of Amari (I hope never). I find info reassuring but will definitely liftout and get advice/survey in 6 weeks.
BTW,Sorry about the bad back esp. if its reason for selling Freyer. For what its worth, as a medic retired from clinical practice, I work p/t for Benefits Agency (DWPensions) and the commonest cause of claimants seeking incapacity benefit is low back pain. Sadly medical science often cannot give a precise cause and less back surgery is done nowadays as results cannot be guaranteed. Main change in pactice is to advise keep as mobile as poss. rather than old advice to rest up. Apologies for a rather negative message, but I believe it helps to understand current state of play, and to you and the forum for exceeding my brief
 
Many thanks William.
All this analysis is very helpful and slighly reassuring re safety in short term, if I read correctly. I will print all this off when I can attach to a printer.
I should have got this sorted in June before retuning to UK for 3 months. Is it human nature to sweep problems under the carpet or is it just me?
 
No it's not just you. I guess we have all done our fair share of sweeping. Interesting point on a possible insurance claim. It might be a bit late and there is the risk that if they don't want to play they will insist that the required work is done anyway and surveyed before they will offer you cover.
 
No it is not just you. I am a great believer in the old adage " don't do today what you can put off till tomorrow"

However the problem is I find when sailing along in as strong wind (on the brink of disaster as I usually do) then the mind starts to worry about what is or can let go. This worry will eventually drive you to fix it.

good luck olewill
 
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