Wansworth
Well-known member
When they are selling their boat.Are there any giveaway signs they are telling porkies?
Do boat owners tell the truth
- Thread starter Wansworth
- Start date
Tranona
Well-known member
Truth is a slippery construct. In modern speak it depends on whose truth you are hearing!
Wansworth
Well-known member
Yes,was thinking if a owner would actually tell me if they knew their boat had signs of a deck delamination
personally I couldn’t not mention defects,I would feel guilty,although it’s a buyer beware situation
johnalison
Well-known member
Some owners will be honest and some not, and some partially either way. I can't speak for the legal situation, but I think that it would be perfectly reasonable to ask direct questions, such as whether any repairs had been carried out, or whether any structural defects were known. You might be able to tell if they were being evasive and if nothing else, a false answer could be used against the seller later.
WoodyP
Well-known member
I was once told by someone who you had to watch that he never told a lie, but he didn't always tell all the truth. Caveat Emptor.
KevinV
Well-known member
Exactly so - lying by omission is very common
benjenbav
Well-known member
I suspect the answer to the original question is that ‘it depends’. Some more candid than others.
Gustywinds
Well-known member
Only if in writing or recorded.
“ If you can’t say something nice, best say nothing at all”
Attachments
LittleSister
Well-known member
A few people are experts at telling lies (some do it for a living!), but many (most?) people are poor at telling consistent lies.
Ask many questions and don't be afraid to ask them the same question in a different way, or even the very same question again later (e.g. 'remind me why you changed X?' or 'what happened to Y?', 'when did Z happen?'.
Are they evasive? Do they claim to not know something when that's very hard to believe. Are they curiously vague in some answers?
Ask what sort of sailing they did. Does it add up with the condition and equipment of the boat? One boat I was so keen on I begged the afternoon off work the day I saw the ad to dash down to see before anybody else snapped it up. The owner told me he'd done quite intrepid sea trips for a 20 footer (e.g. S. Devon round Lands End to N. Cornwall), but there were no nav lights etc. and it didn't add up. I could easily add nav lights, but as he unnecessarily lied about something inconsequential, what else of what he said could I trust.
One boat owner was an extreme case of the above sort of thing. I was very seriously interested in the boat, viewed and inspected it in detail on more than one occasion, including returning with my then partner to get her 'approval' (it was more expensive than any boat I'd previously owned, but I had the money at the time). The owner said he'd studied (and qualified?) to be a marine surveyor, but claimed never to have noticed the distinct kink in the backstay, plus the same for some other not-major-but-obviously-needs-sorting issue I can't remember but had noticed and asked him about; he had some vague and unconvincing tale about how some obvious minor damage had been caused by someone else, but I later found he'd previously told a completely different and very plausible tale of how he'd caused it himself on a very well known sailing forum (no names, no pack drill!
); on the same or another forum I found he'd asked for advice on a potentially serious structural problem he'd previously had and then subsequently fixed relatively simply, but he hadn't mentioned that to me (if he had just said 'I had this problem and fixed it by doing that' I would have been quite happy, subject to having a quick look at the repair); he was an experienced sailor (very experienced according to him) but claimed he couldn't really say how well this boat sailed as he'd only daysailed it in good weather, motoring out of the harbour then reaching back and forth - completely unbelievable to me that an experienced sailor wouldn't have been curious about and explored his (then) new boat's performance to some degree, even had he not also told me separately of the long-distance delivery he'd made of the same boat! (I assumed his avoidance meant the sail performance was poor, but have since learnt it is rather better than I'd assumed, so that lie backfired!) So I didn't trust him any further than I could throw him, but was somehow still keen on that boat, and wanted a brief sail and motor up and down the river (the boat was afloat) to check the motor & gearbox worked OK and the sailing performance wasn't even worse than I'd assumed, before making an offer and coughing up for it to be lifted for a professional survey. He readily agreed to the test sail/motor, but kept delaying fixing a date for it. I'd then seen through the window some small engine parts in packets lying about, and he said was having the yard sort (make some mod?) to improve the 'well known issue' that make/model of engine had with starting in cold weather, but despite a thorough search of the internet I could find no mentions of cold-starting problems with that model engine. He never did get back to me again with the date for that test sail! I assume he had some major engine problem. I bought a very similar boat a few months later. His boat remained for sale for a long time, at one point parked ashore immediately next to my old boat!
Ask many questions and don't be afraid to ask them the same question in a different way, or even the very same question again later (e.g. 'remind me why you changed X?' or 'what happened to Y?', 'when did Z happen?'.
Are they evasive? Do they claim to not know something when that's very hard to believe. Are they curiously vague in some answers?
Ask what sort of sailing they did. Does it add up with the condition and equipment of the boat? One boat I was so keen on I begged the afternoon off work the day I saw the ad to dash down to see before anybody else snapped it up. The owner told me he'd done quite intrepid sea trips for a 20 footer (e.g. S. Devon round Lands End to N. Cornwall), but there were no nav lights etc. and it didn't add up. I could easily add nav lights, but as he unnecessarily lied about something inconsequential, what else of what he said could I trust.
One boat owner was an extreme case of the above sort of thing. I was very seriously interested in the boat, viewed and inspected it in detail on more than one occasion, including returning with my then partner to get her 'approval' (it was more expensive than any boat I'd previously owned, but I had the money at the time). The owner said he'd studied (and qualified?) to be a marine surveyor, but claimed never to have noticed the distinct kink in the backstay, plus the same for some other not-major-but-obviously-needs-sorting issue I can't remember but had noticed and asked him about; he had some vague and unconvincing tale about how some obvious minor damage had been caused by someone else, but I later found he'd previously told a completely different and very plausible tale of how he'd caused it himself on a very well known sailing forum (no names, no pack drill!
); on the same or another forum I found he'd asked for advice on a potentially serious structural problem he'd previously had and then subsequently fixed relatively simply, but he hadn't mentioned that to me (if he had just said 'I had this problem and fixed it by doing that' I would have been quite happy, subject to having a quick look at the repair); he was an experienced sailor (very experienced according to him) but claimed he couldn't really say how well this boat sailed as he'd only daysailed it in good weather, motoring out of the harbour then reaching back and forth - completely unbelievable to me that an experienced sailor wouldn't have been curious about and explored his (then) new boat's performance to some degree, even had he not also told me separately of the long-distance delivery he'd made of the same boat! (I assumed his avoidance meant the sail performance was poor, but have since learnt it is rather better than I'd assumed, so that lie backfired!) So I didn't trust him any further than I could throw him, but was somehow still keen on that boat, and wanted a brief sail and motor up and down the river (the boat was afloat) to check the motor & gearbox worked OK and the sailing performance wasn't even worse than I'd assumed, before making an offer and coughing up for it to be lifted for a professional survey. He readily agreed to the test sail/motor, but kept delaying fixing a date for it. I'd then seen through the window some small engine parts in packets lying about, and he said was having the yard sort (make some mod?) to improve the 'well known issue' that make/model of engine had with starting in cold weather, but despite a thorough search of the internet I could find no mentions of cold-starting problems with that model engine. He never did get back to me again with the date for that test sail! I assume he had some major engine problem. I bought a very similar boat a few months later. His boat remained for sale for a long time, at one point parked ashore immediately next to my old boat!
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Wansworth
Well-known member
Some useful hints thereA few people are experts at telling lies (some do it for a living!), but many (most?) people are poor at telling consistent lies.
Ask many questions and don't be afraid to ask them the same question in a different way, or even the very same question again later (e.g. 'remind me why you changed X?' or 'what happened to Y?', 'when did Z happen?'.
Are they evasive? Do they claim to not know something when that's very hard to believe. Are they curiously vague in some answers?
Ask what sort of sailing they did. Does it add up with the condition and equipment of the boat? One boat I was so keen on I begged the afternoon off work the day I saw the ad to dash down to see before anybody else snapped it up. The owner told me he'd done quite intrepid sea trips for a 20 footer (e.g. S. Devon round Lands End to N. Cornwall), but there were no nav lights etc. and it didn't add up. I could easily add nav lights, but as he unnecessarily lied about something inconsequential, what else of what he said could I trust.
One boat owner was an extreme case of the above sort of thing. I was very seriously interested in the boat, viewed and inspected it in detail on more than one occasion, including returning with my then partner to get her 'approval' (it was more expensive than any boat I'd previously owned, but I had the money at the time). The owner said he'd studied (and qualified?) to be a marine surveyor, but claimed never to have noticed the distinct kink in the backstay, plus the same for some other not-major-but-obviously-needs-sorting issue I can't remember but had noticed and asked him about; he had some vague and unconvincing tale about how some obvious minor damage had been caused by someone else, but I later found he'd previously told a completely different and very plausible tale of how he'd caused it on a very well known sailing forum (no names, no pack drill!
LittleSister
Well-known member
Some useful hints there
In Volume 2 I'll recount all the many occasions where I was taken to the cleaners!
(Actually, I don't think I've ever bought a boat that was not pretty much what I thought it was.
I did once buy a car that turned out to be a 'cut and shunt' sort of thing, actually done by a business but sold 'privately' so no come back, but even though that was a terrible worry at first (I thought I'd have to throw it away, had to have a car for work and didn't know how I could possibly afford another at that time) it actually turned out in the end to be MOT-worthy and a very reliable, economical car (just slightly wonky in non-critical places!).
Most of my significant buying errors have been me being daft, rather than getting proper duped.)
Bristolfashion
Well-known member
The devil's in the detail!
1. Our boat's over 40 years old - any purchaser needs to expect the bumps, scratches and older equipment of a boat of that age
2. I'd never hide anything I was aware of, particularly anything either major or at all safety related
3. I wouldn't detail every missing screw & outstanding job
4. I'd never lie or obfuscate in response to a question
5. I'd encourage detailed & multiple inspections & a survey.
When we sold our previous boat, the diesel line started to leak after we'd agreed a sale & received a deposit - I got a price from the (very good) local diesel engineer, paid him & advised the purchaser to arrange at his convenience.
1. Our boat's over 40 years old - any purchaser needs to expect the bumps, scratches and older equipment of a boat of that age
2. I'd never hide anything I was aware of, particularly anything either major or at all safety related
3. I wouldn't detail every missing screw & outstanding job
4. I'd never lie or obfuscate in response to a question
5. I'd encourage detailed & multiple inspections & a survey.
When we sold our previous boat, the diesel line started to leak after we'd agreed a sale & received a deposit - I got a price from the (very good) local diesel engineer, paid him & advised the purchaser to arrange at his convenience.
Bouba
Well-known member
Boaters lie to themselves.....the truth and their boat are but distant cousins
harvey38
Well-known member
I've just bought a boat electrickery bit from Ebay sold as spares or repair so I asked the question if he knew the item was faulty. Don't know came the response, it was in a job lot I bought, based on that I purchased the item.
When it arrived, hand written on the original box was 'Faulty, item does not power up'.
Despite the item was bought as no returns, Ebay agreed it was misrepresentation and I was refunded.
Bloody liar.
When it arrived, hand written on the original box was 'Faulty, item does not power up'.
Despite the item was bought as no returns, Ebay agreed it was misrepresentation and I was refunded.
Bloody liar.
Ray Purchase
Member
Perhaps work on the assumption that everything is broken but you don't know it yet.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Don't know how to tell a boat owning liar from boat owning non liar, but I think providing a statement of facts around a boat is a reasonable thing to do if selling. Conversely, if one is not provided, and just the inventory, for example, it may be a reason to dig further. Isn't that what surveyors are for anyway, impartiality! Employing a surveyor makes a boat owners truthfulness a moot point, perhaps.
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jordanbasset
Well-known member
From your experience do people selling their cars always tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
The answer to that question is the same for boat owners
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
A few people are experts at telling lies (some do it for a living!), but many (most?) people are poor at telling consistent lies.
Ask many questions and don't be afraid to ask them the same question in a different way, or even the very same question again later (e.g. 'remind me why you changed X?' or 'what happened to Y?', 'when did Z happen?'.
Are they evasive? Do they claim to not know something when that's very hard to believe. Are they curiously vague in some answers?
Ask what sort of sailing they did. Does it add up with the condition and equipment of the boat? One boat I was so keen on I begged the afternoon off work the day I saw the ad to dash down to see before anybody else snapped it up. The owner told me he'd done quite intrepid sea trips for a 20 footer (e.g. S. Devon round Lands End to N. Cornwall), but there were no nav lights etc. and it didn't add up. I could easily add nav lights, but as he unnecessarily lied about something inconsequential, what else of what he said could I trust.
One boat owner was an extreme case of the above sort of thing. I was very seriously interested in the boat, viewed and inspected it in detail on more than one occasion, including returning with my then partner to get her 'approval' (it was more expensive than any boat I'd previously owned, but I had the money at the time). The owner said he'd studied (and qualified?) to be a marine surveyor, but claimed never to have noticed the distinct kink in the backstay, plus the same for some other not-major-but-obviously-needs-sorting issue I can't remember but had noticed and asked him about; he had some vague and unconvincing tale about how some obvious minor damage had been caused by someone else, but I later found he'd previously told a completely different and very plausible tale of how he'd caused it himself on a very well known sailing forum (no names, no pack drill!
Perceptual blindness is common amongst people very familiar with things for all sorts of physiological and psychological reasons. Also, it is easy to forget things in situations that are more stressful than normal. It doest mean that the person is a liar or trying to cover up. Also, when such obvious things are pointed out, the individual is more likely to try and explain it away as a default action, because of its obviousness and make stuff up. Very few of us are made from the right stuff, we use all sorts of subconscious short cuts to get by in life. Caveat emptor is so important.
johnalison
Well-known member
There is a difference between cars and boats in that car salesmen are traditionally just behind estate agents in terms of unreliability, whereas boat-owners have taken part in a sporting activity, in which at least some trace of Corinthian values or sticking to the rules might be expected, if sometimes unjustifiably.
Fr J Hackett
Well-known member
Is there such a thing as lying by omission? I think not.
I think a seller in his description either to a broker or to a potential buyer is duty bound not to tell any falsehoods or lies but neither is he obliged to point out defects unless specifically questioned or asked about them either specifically or generally which is where the OPs question then becomes relevant. I am sure some would hide behind a statement of I did not know or wasn't aware where others will answer truthfully some even before the questions are posed. In the end it's down to the potential buyer and his surveyor to ascertain whether there are any defects substantial or not rather than completely rely on any answers from the seller who as said can disclaim knowledge and it would be difficult to prove that he was aware of anything that was not immediately and glaringly obvious.
I think a seller in his description either to a broker or to a potential buyer is duty bound not to tell any falsehoods or lies but neither is he obliged to point out defects unless specifically questioned or asked about them either specifically or generally which is where the OPs question then becomes relevant. I am sure some would hide behind a statement of I did not know or wasn't aware where others will answer truthfully some even before the questions are posed. In the end it's down to the potential buyer and his surveyor to ascertain whether there are any defects substantial or not rather than completely rely on any answers from the seller who as said can disclaim knowledge and it would be difficult to prove that he was aware of anything that was not immediately and glaringly obvious.
