Distress

[ottie]

Just bought some new flares! We are told we must carry them. Do they really go out of date? Been at an organized flare let off and the 2 that did not work were in date!! But in these modern times with radio, in distress we would send a mayday. It is possible to home in on a radio signal more closely and from further away than a flare, even a floating one. EPIRP may be a better compulsary requirement than flares. That way more would be sold and they would be cheaper. So why still flares? They replaced signal flags, which used to be a very good form of communication but became out of date. I suggest flares are now out of date. Ocean cruising or racing you would carry an EPIRP. Coastal cruising or racing you should carry a radio and many, if not most will also have mobile phone aboard so why do we put so much dependance on flares. They are expensive, have, supposedly, quite a limitted working life and someone else has to be reasonably close to see them.

So lets get practically realistic and say - carry flares if you want to but make sure you have a radio or EPIRP, depending on the extent of your cruising. I know some companies will suffer but they have made a lot of money out of us.

 

[Guest]

There are still ifs and buts with electronic kit. In an emergency I'd want every conceivable firework that would show my position as well as using the mobile phones etc.

 

[Guest]

I suggest you talk to somebody from the Search and Rescue organisations and ask them their opinion. Every RNLI lifeboat carries a full complement of in date distress flares, and if its good enough for them its good enough for me. Get a RNLI SEAcheck, and talk to the checker.
A mathematical problem for you - if a parachute flare bursts at 300m (1,000ft) on a clear night how far away can it be seen at sea level? Work it out, and then repeat your accusation of them being visible only at short distance.

 

[graham]

If a flare is fired within sight of a town you get several members of the public phoning in to report.

Personally, even with electronic epirbs sarts etc , If The water was up to my knees it would boost my confidence to have a bucket of red flares at hand.

Also they alert other small craft around you who may not even have a vhf turned on.

 

[billmacfarlane]

What's the battery life of an EPIRB ? 2 days maybe ? If you've activated your EPIRB mid Atlantic and have taken to your liferaft and it's going to be 3 or 4 days to get a rescue together , how will they find you without flares ? I'd think that flares and an EPIRB are complimentary for long distance cruising. For coastal stuff especially on the English South Coast , flares and a VHF will probably get a more immediate response than an EPIRB.

 

[jonjo]

> if a parachute flare bursts at 300m (1,000ft) on a clear night how far away can it > be seen at sea level?

Not convinced by this argument.

If the challenge is restated as likely to heard v. likely to be seen then the radio v. flare debate is very different.

 

[webcraft]

Radios break easily and need electricity.

Flares don't.

End of argument.

- Nick

BlueMoment.Com
http://www.bluemoment.com

 

[Guest]

I took part in a Mayday alert recently.
At 0100 hrs I saw a red flare off Milford on Sea. I called Solent CG - on VHF. They had been alerted by members of the public and had contacted the fishing vessel by VHF, but had lost contact with him. I was able to stand off and relay messages with CG, Yarmouth life boat and the casualty.
Seems like the combination of flares and VHF worked together.
I carry both in the realisation that there are occasions when I may be glad of the option.

 

[halcyon]

In the new system, a few questions,
What is the range on the average mobile phone, most ariels are sited for use on land, what if your 8 mile of the Lizard?.
What is the life of a EPIRP battery, what is the replacement cost of battery, how does this compare with flare's life and cost?.
What happens to the VHF if you have a battery failure? There was a cruiser that had a engine room flood in mid Channel, lost all electrics including VHF and back-up VHF, had EDC so lost both engines, if your in /close to a shipping lane, may be a little nervous waiting for them to launch a search for your EPIRP.


Brian

 

[Guest]

Handheld Gear

You raise an interesting question about power failure.

I have read on more than one occasion that the extended crusing fraternity rate HANDHELD independantly powered VHF and GPS above any other gizmos onboard. Why ? because they have all had various incidents where power has been lost or badly damaged.

I recently went aboard a well found boat which had fixed everything including radar and electronic charts. I was astounded that the owner had no paperbased charts for the area. But I expect that this is now quite common. Is this the reason why so much motoring is done on yachts now ? . We are probably now becoming slaves to keep the batteries in good nick.

 

[Guest]

Sorry you are not convinced by the "argument". Actually there wasn't one. How many people walking along a beach do you know who have a vhf set with them? The answer to my challenge I am reliably informed is as much as 35 - 40 miles and covering an area of some several hundreds of square miles. My maths isn't up to it to-night, but it sounds reasonable to me and seen from a cliff top it would be even more. And, surprise, surprise, not every small craft (which could be as little as only 100m away), is fitted with vhf or has it on.

 

[ottie]

In bad visibility you are wrong - your flare will have limited visibility. Why should people on the beach have a VHF? If you have a VHF on a boat and you are, as you should be a registered operator legally you should be listening on channel 16

 

[ottie]

If you sail close enough to the beach you could swim ashore. You cannot rely on the public. How many people react to hearing a car or house alarm sounding off? Remeber your VHF course. If you have one you must listen on channel 16.

 

[jonjo]

EPIRB uses radio waves and this is what I was referring to.

Let me put it this way, if I had to sail to Azores and could only take a VHF, RORC pack of flares or an EPIRB I would probably choose the EPIRB.

Once a rescue vessel is doing a box search based on an EPIRB alert, then flares and a handheld VHF would perform an important part of the close proximity rescue effort.

Flares are still important but less so these days unless your engine catches fire at night 3 miles south of Bournemouth pier or an inshore lifeboat needs to pick you out on a busy summer day.

The coast guard service barely has a visual lookout function these days, fishing fleets are declining further still and merchant vessels are replacing eyeballs with technology. The original poster makes a reasonable point whether safety regulations should give higher priority to 21st century distress beacons compared to 19th century pyrotechnics.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ottie,

See where you are coming from on this (EPIRB BTW, not EPIRP) and agree with the logic except that flares are the distress signal of last resort. When all else has failed, and the water is up to your armpits, flares will still work (provided you have reasonable visibility). A full 'RORC' set of flares costs about £150 and has an official 3 year life (longer unofficially) so it's £50 pa for last resort insurance. Cheap at the price compared with a funeral or two.

 

[jonjo]

Agreed.

The role of flares for inshore assistance is further diminished by all those firework parties that the modern day British throw throughout the year.

 

[Guest]

This is one of those posts that can really get a debate going. Yes Ottie is right in as much as now with modern electronics flares seem to be taking a back seat in "modern boaters" thinking. We can sit here and debate all night about different senarios i.e Theres thick fog whats the use of a flare or engine compartment is flooded and all power has been lost so no VHF, GPS etc. Mast has come down bringing VHF aerial with it. I'm 1 nm offshore or I'm 20nm offshore. The bottom line is you should have a number of different means of raising an alert, sure if the VHF and GPS are working then thats the way to go and with the introduction of GMDSS this is even quicker, but what I can say (as an RNLI sea check advisor) is, there is always going to be a place for flares on a boat. I can say for a fact that if for arguements sake you find yourself in trouble off the N. Goodwins, then Ramsgate AWLB will be tasked. He will be given the last "reported" position by Dover CG as soon as the boat clears Ramsgate harbour and is heading in the general direction she will ask for a flare to be fired to give a heading/location mark. Alternatively Dover CG may task a SAR helicopter to you and they will almost certainly ask you to "pop smoke for surface wind speed and ident" so folks it's not a matter of dumping flares in favour of electronics its a matter of a combination of different methods of raising the alarm dependant on your location and circumstances.
Peter Aird
RNLI Seacheck Advisor

 

[Twister_Ken]

If I boated on the Serpentine, I'd agree with you.

 

[Mirelle]

Keeping flares

I will still be buying flares, I think. Mind you, I buy paper charts!

I have adopted Tom Cunliffe's approach and retain the last "old" set on board as well as the in date ones - if I want some, I will want to use plenty, and I am pretty sure, having experimented in earlier years, before we were told never to let them off, even in a back garden miles inland, that the old ones will work.

 

[mtb]

Re: More options the better

He who kids himself that he's prepared !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There have been plenty of prosecutions re not having up to date paper charts and pilot books on board,take a look at
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/

Gps and so on may be the lazy mans option but when things go wrong then what.

Mick


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v / cheap or swap for tug