Difficulty engaging forward gear - Beta 30

[RedBaron]

Hi all,

I have been having some trouble engaging forward gear on my Beta 30 diesel inboard engine and was hoping to get some thoughts from the group on what the issue might be. These are the symptoms I’m seeing:

1. Boat is totally fine engaging reverse. No problems: I put gearstick into reverse, there is immediately a satisfactory thud and propellor engages
2. With forward gear this is usually what happens: I will put gearstick into forward and propellor shaft will often not move for a couple of seconds. It will then typically start turning very slowly for another couple of seconds. And then suddenly it will catch and start turning at a rate consistent with the revs it’s supposed to be at. At no point does there seem to be the same noticeable thud that I get when putting the engine into reverse
3. The issue is most noticeable on startup. Once I have put the boat into reverse / forward a few times and "warmed things up", the forward gear appears to engage more quickly. When firing the engine up at the end of the day, to taxi into the marina, forward gear engages more easily

The research I’ve done suggests this might be an issue with the “clutch cone” but wanted to get a few other people’s thoughts (not to mention find out what exactly a “clutch cone” is and how one services it) before I start tinkering with things.

Many thanks for any help you can give!

 

[westernman]

Hi all,

I have been having some trouble engaging forward gear on my Beta 30 diesel inboard engine and was hoping to get some thoughts from the group on what the issue might be. These are the symptoms I’m seeing:

1. Boat is totally fine engaging reverse. No problems: I put gearstick into reverse, there is immediately a satisfactory thud and propellor engages
2. With forward gear this is usually what happens: I will put gearstick into forward and propellor shaft will often not move for a couple of seconds. It will then typically start turning very slowly for another couple of seconds. And then suddenly it will catch and start turning at a rate consistent with the revs it’s supposed to be at. At no point does there seem to be the same noticeable thud that I get when putting the engine into reverse
3. The issue is most noticeable on startup. Once I have put the boat into reverse / forward a few times and "warmed things up", the forward gear appears to engage more quickly. When firing the engine up at the end of the day, to taxi into the marina, forward gear engages more easily

The research I’ve done suggests this might be an issue with the “clutch cone” but wanted to get a few other people’s thoughts (not to mention find out what exactly a “clutch cone” is and how one services it) before I start tinkering with things.

Many thanks for any help you can give!

This is what I had, and it is the clutch cones. You will find that over time it will take longer and longer to engage. Then it will not engage at all. This is very embarrassing when in a marina trying to manoevre. Ask me how I know.

The only real solution is to rebuild the transmission. Other people reported you might get some small improvement for a while by changing to a thicker oil (the fact that your gearbox engages better when cold suggests this might have a positive effect - at least for a short time). You can also try fiddling a little bit with the gear linkage (i.e. to try and engage more solidly the lever on the gearbox in the forward position). None of this had any noticeable effect in my tranmission on a 85HP Yanmar - so different from yours.

 

[BabaYaga]

I would start by checking the adjustment of the gear cable. With engine control lever in neutral, disconnect the cable from the gearbox lever and identify the three positions for forward, neutral and reverse.
Then move the engine control lever to check that the attachment point on the threaded stud on the loose cable end travels correspondingly.

 

[scottie]

Might be worth checking gear cable linkage before total stripdown but ?

 

[westernman]

I would start by checking the adjustment of the gear cable. With engine control lever in neutral, disconnect the cable from the gearbox lever and identify the three positions for forward, neutral and reverse.
Then move the engine control lever to check that the attach point on the threaded stud on the loose cable end travels correspondingly.

Good place to start as it is easy to do and has no cost.

But, very unlikely to change anything assuming everything was set up properly in the first place.

 

[doug748]

As westernman has hinted the TMC 40 gearbox especially is known to play up in this way if the cones become glazed/worn . Beta fit TMC 60 boxes to the 30hp engine, which are possibly more robust, but work in a similar way

The 40, new replacement cost is not huge, I bought one last year for c £700 so it may be worth pricing up a 60, as you then have one to rebuild and de glazing/replacing the cones, at your leisure, would be worth doing so you have a spare. Obviously only worth it for a boat you will keep long term.

PS

Beta used to specify 3 yearly oil changes on the TMC, they changed that to one year so well worth bearing in mind for the future.
Also people have suggested elsewhere that poor cable adjustment may be a factor in premature wear/polishing the cones so well worth making the careful checks mentioned above, when refitting.

.

 

[LittleSister]

Beaten to it by Balayage, Scottie and westernman [Must type faster!). I agree first check carefully the cable operation.

I think it's unlikely to be that, but since it is relatively painless and cost-free . . .

I would set about it by making sure the lever on the gearbox is being moved for forward as much as it is for reverse (engine can be off for this), in case the throttle lever is moving the gear cable differently in fwd and reverse (it shouldn't) - unlikely but worth checking).

Then disconnect gear cable at gearbox and try putting into forward and reverse with engine cold but running. Just in case you are getting even travel from the throttle lever, but not quite enough for proper operation and the reverse being better at coping with this.

Check you have the correct amount and type of gearbox oil, and change the oil if it hasn't been done in recent times.

. . .
Other people reported you might get some small improvement for a while by changing to a thicker oil (the fact that your gearbox engages better when cold suggests this might have a positive effect - at least for a short time).

As I read it that's the reverse (arf, arf!) of what he reported. He said more problem when just started.

 

[westernman]

Beaten to it by Balayage, Scottie and westernman [Must type faster!). I agree first check carefully the cable operation.

I think it's unlikely to be that, but since it is relatively painless and cost-free . . .

I would set about it by making sure the lever on the gearbox is being moved for forward as much as it is for reverse (engine can be off for this), in case the throttle lever is moving the gear cable differently in fwd and reverse (it shouldn't) - unlikely but worth checking).

Then disconnect gear cable at gearbox and try putting into forward and reverse with engine cold but running. Just in case you are getting even travel from the throttle lever, but not quite enough for proper operation and the reverse being better at coping with this.

Check you have the correct amount and type of gearbox oil, and change the oil if it hasn't been done in recent times.



As I read it that's the reverse (arf, arf!) of what he reported. He said more problem when just started.

Oops. My misread.
In which case, may be a thinner oil might help temporarily.

 

[earlybird]

Beta specify ATF for the TMC gearbox. There's not many oils thinner than that. It's not unknown for the incorrect oil to be used in geaboxes, eg; engine oil. Perhaps worth checking that the lubricant is in fact ATF as thicker stuff might cause the OP's symptoms.

 

[RedBaron]

Thanks all - extremely helpful feedback here. I will first try the various experiments suggested with the gear cable linkage to see if that's the issue. I will also change the gearbox oil - I have had the boat for 18 months and done 500 engine hours during that time and never changed the gearbox oil; not sure when the prior owner changed it so it could well be 2+ years old and contributing to the problem. However, I can confirm that the current oil is ATF oil.


Although I will try the above, the consensus on the group does seem to be that the issue is more serious - requiring gearbox overhaul / replacement (which I imagine I’d need to get someone in to do).


2 quick follow up questions:

1. I should have mentioned that engine is 10 years old, but only done 1,000 hours. A gearbox issue at 1,000 hours feels very early in the engine’s life cycle. Is that fair to say and, if so, might it point to some of these more minor potential fixes that have been suggested?
2. WesternMan - how long did you have from this issue first appearing until propellor wouldn’t engage at all? I’m currently in a fairly remote part of northern Norway and trying to understand how urgently I need to take action and get to a place where this can be worked on (assuming gearbox overhaul / replacement is needed)

Thanks everyone!

 

[Tranona]

As westernman has hinted the TMC 40 gearbox especially is known to play up in this way if the cones become glazed/worn . Beta fit TMC 60 boxes to the 30hp engine, which are possibly more robust, but work in a similar way

The 40, new replacement cost is not huge, I bought one last year for c £700 so it may be worth pricing up a 60, as you then have one to rebuild and de glazing/replacing the cones, at your leisure, would be worth doing so you have a spare. Obviously only worth it for a boat you will keep long term.


.

Unfortunately the 60 is not a direct replacement for the 40 as it is bigger and the output centre is different. I went through this when specifying my new 30 (which has a TMC 40 as standard - the 60 is optional). Read the comments on the weaknesses of the 40 with this engine and discovered it was on the limits of its recommended capacity) so on Beta's advice changed to a PRM which also has a better choice of ratios with the same in forward and reverse, unlike the TMC. The centres are almost the same so could fit it without changing the new beds I put in.

So, if the OPs current box is worn enough to consider replacement suggest a PRM which will need just a slight increase in height of the engine.

 

[westernman]

1. WesternMan - how long did you have from this issue first appearing until propellor wouldn’t engage at all? I’m currently in a fairly remote part of northern Norway and trying to understand how urgently I need to take action and get to a place where this can be worked on (assuming gearbox overhaul / replacement is needed)

Thanks everyone!

About 20 years. No idea of hours.

The gearbox had a relatively easy life until our ownership. We brought the boat to the Med in 2008 (about 10 years old at the time) and since then the gearbox has had a very hard life with 100 point turns being the norm for getting stern to into our berth with no stearage while going astern. We had the problem in 2018.

We also broke the feathering prop (variprop I think a couple of years before that and replaced with the original fixed prop). The internal gear bits broke into pieces - also thanks to the hard life it and the gearbox had.

I suspect that it is number of shifts which determine the gearbox life rather than running hours.
So basically I had to redo the cones after 10 years of hard life.

If however, your has had an easy life - e.g. in gear forwards going out the marina. To neutral and engine off while sailing and then engage forward to go into the marina and a burst of reverse to stop, then it should last forever. If every day your do a 100 points turn with forward-reverse-forward repeated 100 times in succession then 10 years seems to be the limit unless the gearbox is well over dimensioned for the engine/propellor torque.

 

[RedBaron]

A quick update: I changed the gear box oil, which didn't seem to have any effect. I have then been trying to play around with the gear cable as I think this may be the issue: when going into forward, the gear lever does not seem to have made its entire range of motion into gear before throttle starts being applied; after throttle is applied, the gear level makes an additional ~5mm movement. This makes me think that the issue may be with the gear cable and that the gearbox is being made to put the engine into gear at too late a stage (i.e. when the engine revs are too high).

This brings me to a new question: How does one adjust the engagement point for forward without it throwing the engagement point for reverse out of sync? It seems to me that the only way to make the engine engage forward earlier is to shorten the gear cable, but this will then mean reverse is engaged later. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[earlybird]

As you imply, there's a screw adjuster to adjust the cable movement between the 2 positions. Is there more than one attachment hole on the gearbox operating lever? Moving the cable attachment to a smaller radius will give a greater angular throw on the lever for the same cable movement. It's also possible that the your cockpit control lever has a choice of attachment positions to give the same effect.

 

[westernman]

A quick update: I changed the gear box oil, which didn't seem to have any effect. I have then been trying to play around with the gear cable as I think this may be the issue: when going into forward, the gear lever does not seem to have made its entire range of motion into gear before throttle starts being applied; after throttle is applied, the gear level makes an additional ~5mm movement. This makes me think that the issue may be with the gear cable and that the gearbox is being made to put the engine into gear at too late a stage (i.e. when the engine revs are too high).

This brings me to a new question: How does one adjust the engagement point for forward without it throwing the engagement point for reverse out of sync? It seems to me that the only way to make the engine engage forward earlier is to shorten the gear cable, but this will then mean reverse is engaged later. Am I doing something wrong?

I tried this on mine to no effect. But your mileage may vary.

 

[cagey]

Just a thought, if engine hours are low perhaps problem is with beds and engine movement through either not tightened down properly or propeller moving engine forward. Do gears engage positively when engine is off

 

[BabaYaga]

This brings me to a new question: How does one adjust the engagement point for forward without it throwing the engagement point for reverse out of sync? It seems to me that the only way to make the engine engage forward earlier is to shorten the gear cable, but this will then mean reverse is engaged later. Am I doing something wrong?

If the cable is not properly adjusted, it might well be the case that it is a bit 'late' going into forward gear and at the same time a bit 'early' going into reverse gear. The latter will likely not be an issue.
I think you need to detach the cable from the gear box lever so that you can move it by hand and discover the detent positions for neutral, forward and reverse. And check that the cable moves correspondingly.
My TMC 40 manual (from 2005) says that the lever's stroke between forward and reverse should be no less than 70mm measured at the outer lever hole and no less than 60mm measured at the inner hole.
Shortening the gear cable (if it could be done) will have no effect, as far as I can see.

 

[RedBaron]

Thanks for the additional input folk.

A final update: I checked out the gear cable and I don't believe this is the issue - forward and reverse were engaging in exactly the same way with the cable attached as they were when I disconnected the cable and was manually putting the engine into forward / reverse using the gear lever on the gearbox. That said, I was using the boat the past couple of days and the situation seems somewhat improved - maybe the change of oil or the tightening up of some of the nuts and bolts has made a difference. Regardless, I think at this point all that's left for me to do is to monitor the situation and engage an expert (and possibly replace the gearbox) should it start to play up more seriously.

I really appreciate all the help. Wouldn't have even known the first place to begin in trying to troubleshoot the issue. Many thanks!

 

[westernman]

It will of course play up on a windy day when you are trying to park your boat next to something very large, shiny and expensive.
There will of course be a large crowd of witnesses onlookers watching you royally cock it up......

Ask me how I know.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for the additional input folk.

A final update: I checked out the gear cable and I don't believe this is the issue - forward and reverse were engaging in exactly the same way with the cable attached as they were when I disconnected the cable and was manually putting the engine into forward / reverse using the gear lever on the gearbox. That said, I was using the boat the past couple of days and the situation seems somewhat improved - maybe the change of oil or the tightening up of some of the nuts and bolts has made a difference. Regardless, I think at this point all that's left for me to do is to monitor the situation and engage an expert (and possibly replace the gearbox) should it start to play up more seriously.

I really appreciate all the help. Wouldn't have even known the first place to begin in trying to troubleshoot the issue. Many thanks!

If you do go down the replacement route then seriously look at the PRM. The TMC40 is very close to its limit with 30hp, particularly if, like me you need a 2.65:1 reduction.