Different perspective on Legend debate

[paulstevens]

In 32 years cruising I have unfortunately experienced a number of gales offshore and am convinced the biggest danger is fatigue.
I am equally convinced that the general type of modern yacht under discussion can survive apalling conditions but requires a good deal more participation from her crew. Because of this and her particular motion she will rapidly tire her crew, which is the nub of the matter. Many of the Cat A and B yachts of the general type and size discussed cannot supply her crew with adeqaute rest or sustinence and a secure enviroment, without which essential decisions become a lottery.
If you are purchasing one of these boats to sail offshore in severe weather you will need secure seaberths which can provide rest of sorts, a safe galley which can provide hot drinks and rudimentary meals, adequate handholds, secure and workable stowage etc etc. You may find the modifications required will be impossible given the proliferation of double berths and U-shaped seating, or at least very expensive. If she cannot sustain her crew in severe sea conditons she cannot be Ocean or Offshore capable.
Having said that I am convinced these boats are superb for the use most are put to.

 

[Abaker]

Excellent addition to this multi-thread debate. Having experienced one gale offshore in a relatively new yacht designed the old way, I agree that fatigue is critical, especially for shorthanded cruising. Offshore let's have seakindliness and secure spaces for the crew below and on deck. Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook (different title in UK I think) contains detailed discussions of both the stability and accommodation issues.

 

[Chris_Stannard]

I fully support your views. Fatigue, or a similar condition,is the most critical factor. My worst trip was on what should have been a milk run to Guernsey when we had an unholy combination of food poisoning, due to an under cooked chicken, and an unexpected Southerly Gale. Cherbourg was never so welcoming.

I also agree with you that most boats are more than adequate for the purposes that most sailors put them to. What I believe is a major failing of the current CE system is that the status of Category A is a MUST for the industry and may be viewed less stringenly by some EU members than others. Although this is unlikely to deceive the experienced sailor, who both knows what he wants to do, and when to stay in harbour or change his plan, it may confuse or mislead the less experienced into believing that their boat is more capable than it is. Based on the spreadsheet from Johnsboatstuff website and the data on the Legend, from YM, it would seem the Legend 356 is marginal or worse on a number of factors as a blue water cruising boat. But as you say it is unlikely to be used in that role. However it does achieve a capsize risk factor of 1.93 which is inside the 2.0 reckoned to be the highest value for entry to offshore races. It may be that when more data is available the Legend will fare better and as it is to be built in the UK I hope that is does and that it enjoys a successful future

Chris Stannard

Chris Stannard

 

[RobertMartin]

A lot of times ( my boat included ) the hull and rig are fine in any gale,but the the interior lacks all the needed equipment for surviving a good blow.. I am in the process of changing my interior to bring it up to spec ( a very expensive job ) A lot of new boat do not have sea berth, lee cloths or any where near the correct amount of storm sails.... Anyboat can be caught in a storm, and 95 % of them will survive, but as for the poor people being chucked around down below with no handholds...

Bobby aka Seawolf..
Freedom is the song of your soul..

 

[Eudorajab]

I too agree that the most important factor is the ability to make the right descions at the right time.

I also agree that crew comfort contributes enormously to this.

There are however very very few boats built these days that incorporate lee cloths etc and having experienced a number of gales and horrendous conditions as both crew and skipper I found that the place most sought after on the boat during a blow was in fact flat on the cabin sole!!

I would also just like to add that the number of handholds and grab rails in the hunter seem more than adequate for any but the most severe conditions. Also bear in mind the large aft cabin where is is possible to lay either way (depending on the motion of the boat) quite comfortably (and you can fit quite a few bodies in there).

As most sailors do try and avoid the really heavy stuff surely it makes sense to design (interiors) for the majority of time usage. Most sailors I know are fairly adaptable sorts anyway and should be able to find a comfy hidey hole somewhere aboard to rest and ride out whatever gets hurled their way.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Regarding Category A which the RCD would have us believe is suited for Offshore sailing, I was surprised to read in S*iling T*day that Cat A requires an minimum AVS of 95 degrees. The same article points out that the RYA recommendation is 140 degrees, which seems much more sensible.

So it would be possible to be sailing a RCD Cat A boat, which if knocked down to mast-in-water, just kept on going.
Can this be right?

 

[bedouin]

Like you I read the ST article and was surprised by that; it is obviously absurd for a sailing monohull. I wonder if the RCD has different requirements for sail, power and multihulls?

 

[DoctorD]

Interesting. I have a high quality newish boat, lightish displacement, broad aft sections, plumb bow with fine entry. But she is very stiff - high ballast ratio (41%) and AVS of ~140 degrees, high SA/displ ratio and can keep going so long as her crew can in just about anything. She is fast but has a livelier motion than a heavier displacement long keeler. Also she has a very comfortable interior for harbour but I specifically wanted good seaberths with leecloths in the centre of the boat, a bomb proof galley with secure handholds, crash bar, bum strap, manual water pump to back up the electric water pump. I also had to add extra harness attachment points in the cockpit and I've just added a deep third reef to the main (it amazes me that a fractionally rigged boat with a big main only has two reefs).

It was also important that the boat heaved to - some modern designs do not. This can be a vital tactic for someone like me to get myself sorted out especially when sailing with small children.

Even well found category A boats need modifications to make them seaworthy and able to look after their crew in offshore passages. I agree one has to be able to get some rest in any condition and also to rustle up some hot food of some description.

Graham

 

[billmacfarlane]

You' ve just gave a very accurate description of a Maxi 1100.
Welcome to the club .

 

[Eudorajab]

Couldnt agree more. I assume that you have specifically left out things like watermakers etc from you list of modifications which all contribute to making life easier and safer on board especially on long offshore passages.

Without doubt every boat you ever own will need some sort of modification or another depending on what you are intending to use it for and more importantly your own presonal tastes and experinces.

The only way to get a boat that is 100% to your requirement is to build one form scratch.

I guess all I am saying is that as with most things in life (marriage is a good example) some sort of compromise will inevitabley come into play. The only exception here of course should be safety, from both boat and skippers perspective.

 

[DoctorD]

Thanks for the welcome - yes I do have a Maxi 1100 - she's a fine boat but isn't it annoying when builders don't think about the little things that can make a big difference offshore? Overall I'm very pleased though - certainly the best cruiser/racer I've sailed.

Graham

 

[Bergman]

Yes absolutely right.

Once got blown off an anchorage in Loch Leven late one night after a long day and decided to do the trip planned for next day - to Dunstaffnage.

After about 40 hours without sleep arrived in general area and could not find the damn place.

I could not make the chart fit what I could see and plotting from Decca gave a position miles inland.

Nasty experience. Brain just wouldn't work properly. Ended up sailing back and forth wondering what to do next. Eventually I saw a big ferry appear from behind a hill and went there.

Oban

Where I should have gone in first place.

Didn't tell SWMBO until next day, intended leaving early and saying nowt. Sadly it was blowing even harder and had to own up. We stayed put - for 3 days.