Difference between a burgee and a membership flag

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Babylon

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(Please stay away from this thread if you just want to bitch about ensigns and associated etiquette.)

If, as a yacht club member wearing a defaced ensign with the club's burgee at the top of the stbd signal halyard, I also want to indicate membership of additional bodies (eg CA, RNLI, etc), what is the correct thing to hoist: a second triangular burgee or a square membership flag?
 
Well, leaving aside Courtesy Flags (which is a discussion that is good for about 100 increasingly rabid posts :)), my understanding is that all other flags/pennants etc should be hoisted on the port signal halyard.

Not sure it matters if its a pennant or flag.
 
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You clearly know more than me - I've never heard of there being a meaningful difference between square and triangular (apart from on dinghies in Chichester Harbour). I would therefore assume the number of people likely to get upset over a triangular vs a square flag is practically non-existent.

Personally I would put the extra flag on the port signal halyard; if I had multiple ones I'd put them all on that side in order of seniority.

Pete
 
FWIW, my club requests that their Burgee be flown at the Masthead & recommends the use of a garden cane to get it clear of other masthead apparatus. I find this works well & leaves the Stbd spreader for courtesy flags & the Port spreader is used for WOA, RNLI, Scutttlebutt & other associations I may wish to declare support of.

The logic behind the suggestion is due to some foreign johnnies getting their knickers in a twist if the club's burgee is flown above their country's courtesy ensign (as is correct in our country).
 
prv said:
You clearly know more than me - I've never heard of there being a meaningful difference between square and triangular (apart from on dinghies in Chichester Harbour). I would therefore assume the number of people likely to get upset over a triangular vs a square flag is practically non-existent.

Personally I would put the extra flag on the port signal halyard; if I had multiple ones I'd put them all on that side in order of seniority.

Pete
Click to expand...

That's what I'd say
 
Searush said:
FWIW, my club requests that their Burgee be flown at the Masthead & recommends the use of a garden cane to get it clear of other masthead apparatus. I find this works well & leaves the Stbd spreader for courtesy flags & the Port spreader is used for WOA, RNLI, Scutttlebutt & other associations I may wish to declare support of.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, that's exactly what I do too. Except that my burgee isn't a club one, being there mostly to show the wind direction. I use a St Piran's Cross because both the boat and I were born in Cornwall. I also don't have any masthead "apparatus" - the VHF antenna is on the mizzen, and the wind-strength sensor is sitting in the cockpit.

Searush said:
The logic behind the suggestion is due to some foreign johnnies getting their knickers in a twist if the club's burgee is flown above their country's courtesy ensign (as is correct in our country).
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand - surely putting the burgee at the masthead achieves exactly what annoys them?

Or is that why? :D

Pete
 
LADY B said:
Well, leaving aside Courtesy Flags (which is a discussion that is good for about 100 increasingly rabid posts :)), my understanding is that all other flags/pennants etc should be hoisted on the port signal halyard.
Click to expand...

Drat, that means I will have to take the mast down to switch the signal halyard to the port spreader.:(

Still, 'twill give me a chance to put the Windex back up which blew off last week!:)
 
Burgees

Head above parapet - here goes

My Blue Ensign Club (and I think all others) specifically state that (in a sailing yacht) the burgee MUST be flown at the masthead - NO exceptions, and at the same time as the blue ensign. If you cannot fly the burgee at the masthead, then the RED ensign must be worn instead. (motor yachts have different requirements)
I suppose that the club burgee could be flown at the port yard, and the red ensign at the stern.

Cheers,

Michael.
 
emandvee44 said:
Head above parapet - here goes

My Blue Ensign Club (and I think all others) specifically state that (in a sailing yacht) the burgee MUST be flown at the masthead - NO exceptions, and at the same time as the blue ensign. If you cannot fly the burgee at the masthead, then the RED ensign must be worn instead. (motor yachts have different requirements)
I suppose that the club burgee could be flown at the port yard, and the red ensign at the stern.

Cheers,

Michael.
Click to expand...

Just checked our own club rules (which are slightly more lenient as regards the masthead):

1. The blue defaced ensign will only be worn at the same time as the Club burgee.
2. The Club burgee is always worn at the main masthead, unless it is impracticable
then it may be flown as a Senior burgee from the starboard spreader.
3. When a Member of the [Club] is a Member of another Club or Clubs, he may fly
the burgee of that Club at the principal masthead and the appropriate ensign, but
should then fly the Members flag of the [Club] at the starboard signal halyard. The
Members flag should not be flown in isolation. It is normal to observe this procedure
when in the waters of the Club concerned.
4. Courtesy ensigns of the countries being visited will be flown from the starboard
crosstrees or yardarm when foreign visiting.

From this (and other advice previously given) I infer that:
(i) I can normally fly the club burgee at the starboard spreader.
(ii) If flying a club's burgee (and wearing that club's ensign if appropriate), then I should only hoist the member's flag (rectangular) and not the burgee (triangular) of any other club or association to which I also belong. If flying the senior club's burgee from the starboard spreader, I should then fly the other membership flag from the port spreader.
(iii) If going foreign, I need to hoist the host country's courtesy flag on the starboard spreader and shift the club burgee to the port spreader apparently. If, when going foreign, I also want to fly the membership flag of a second club/association, then presumably this gets hoisted below the main club's burgee on the port spreader.

Crect?

I wish I had something better to do than mither about all this!
 
emandvee44 said:
Head above parapet - here goes

My Blue Ensign Club (and I think all others) specifically state that (in a sailing yacht) the burgee MUST be flown at the masthead - NO exceptions, and at the same time as the blue ensign. If you cannot fly the burgee at the masthead, then the RED ensign must be worn instead. (motor yachts have different requirements)
I suppose that the club burgee could be flown at the port yard, and the red ensign at the stern.

Cheers,

Michael.
Click to expand...

Oh dear - I really don't want to get into a flag etiquette debate having seen where they can go, but could someone explain how to fly a burgee at the masthead when, as far as I have seen, there is generally no means of raising and lowering a flag to the masthead on modern (and ours is 1988) yachts.

Does one have to climb the mast at sunset every morning and evening or what?

I can't help feeling I'm missing something here - again.
 
My club states that the burgee must be at the masthead if possible. Blue ensigns must be accompanied by the club cummerbund. If this is inconvenient, you can fly it on the starboard spreader, but at the same time you must wear saucy underwear. The rules stipulate a minimum of peephole bra (the rules were last revised in the 70s I'm afraid). If a courtesy flag is on the starboard spreader, then the burgee can be move to port, but the skipper must wear saucy undies appertaining to the country of the courtesy flag (french maid, teutonic dominatrix, etc.) and all crew members must adopt outrageous accents from the same at all times. Except on Tuesdays.

Some would say it's a little odd, but they clearly haven't been to the right schools. Gideon Osbourne is a member.
 
Supine Being said:
My club states that the burgee must be at the masthead if possible. Blue ensigns must be accompanied by the club cummerbund. If this is inconvenient, you can fly it on the starboard spreader, but at the same time you must wear saucy underwear. The rules stipulate a minimum of peephole bra (the rules were last revised in the 70s I'm afraid). If a courtesy flag is on the starboard spreader, then the burgee can be move to port, but the skipper must wear saucy undies appertaining to the country of the courtesy flag (french maid, teutonic dominatrix, etc.) and all crew members must adopt outrageous accents from the same at all times. Except on Tuesdays.

Some would say it's a little odd, but they clearly haven't been to the right schools. Gideon Osbourne is a member.
Click to expand...

Best post yet. Yah.
Thanks SB.
 
Sinc said:
Oh dear - I really don't want to get into a flag etiquette debate having seen where they can go, but could someone explain how to fly a burgee at the masthead when, as far as I have seen, there is generally no means of raising and lowering a flag to the masthead on modern (and ours is 1988) yachts.

Does one have to climb the mast at sunset every morning and evening or what?

I can't help feeling I'm missing something here - again.
Click to expand...

If you go up the mast in a bosun's chair to the truck, very high on the starboard side of the mast very close to the truck you will probably find a small pulley. A long signal halyard is rove through this down to deck level.
This long signal halyard is the one used to wear from the masthead, hope this helps.
 
Babylon said:
Just checked our own club rules (which are slightly more lenient as regards the masthead):

1. The blue defaced ensign will only be worn at the same time as the Club burgee.
2. The Club burgee is always worn at the main masthead, unless it is impracticable
then it may be flown as a Senior burgee from the starboard spreader.
3. When a Member of the [Club] is a Member of another Club or Clubs, he may fly
the burgee of that Club at the principal masthead and the appropriate ensign, but
should then fly the Members flag of the [Club] at the starboard signal halyard. The
Members flag should not be flown in isolation. It is normal to observe this procedure
when in the waters of the Club concerned.
4. Courtesy ensigns of the countries being visited will be flown from the starboard
crosstrees or yardarm when foreign visiting.

From this (and other advice previously given) I infer that:
(i) I can normally fly the club burgee at the starboard spreader.
(ii) If flying a club's burgee (and wearing that club's ensign if appropriate), then I should only hoist the member's flag (rectangular) and not the burgee (triangular) of any other club or association to which I also belong. If flying the senior club's burgee from the starboard spreader, I should then fly the other membership flag from the port spreader.
(iii) If going foreign, I need to hoist the host country's courtesy flag on the starboard spreader and shift the club burgee to the port spreader apparently. If, when going foreign, I also want to fly the membership flag of a second club/association, then presumably this gets hoisted below the main club's burgee on the port spreader.

Crect?

I wish I had something better to do than mither about all this!
Click to expand...

But surely when 'going foreign' the RED ensign must be worn when entering/staying/leaving port.

And (at the risk of being keelhauled) where in your club's regs. does it mention the port spreader. Surely all flags should be flown in descending order of.........
 
VO5 said:
If you go up the mast in a bosun's chair to the truck, very high on the starboard side of the mast very close to the truck you will probably find a small pulley. A long signal halyard is rove through this down to deck level.
This long signal halyard is the one used to wear from the masthead, hope this helps.
Click to expand...


I don't recall seeing any spare blocks last time I was hauled up the mast so when we lift out this winter we'll get the mast down and fit the necessary gear.
Looking throught the forum posts it does seem terribly important to have the means to fly the correct flags from the correct places.
Much obliged for your input.
 
OK then, at the risk of drifting things, we used to fly a square flag with the club design on one of the signal halyards to signify a past commodore (me dad) whilst flying the triangular burgee of similar design from the masthead. Was that correct?
 
Sinc said:
Oh dear - I really don't want to get into a flag etiquette debate having seen where they can go, but could someone explain how to fly a burgee at the masthead when, as far as I have seen, there is generally no means of raising and lowering a flag to the masthead on modern (and ours is 1988) yachts.

Does one have to climb the mast at sunset every morning and evening or what?

I can't help feeling I'm missing something here - again.
Click to expand...

My club does insist on burgees at the masthead. A simple block bolted to the mast near the masthead suffices to take a signal halyard up there. But to clear the VHF aerial needed (on my 40 footer) a stick of at least 8 feet, with 10 feet giving safer clearance. An old fishing rod worked OK and cost £1, but was a devil to hoist in windy conditions. So I had a local guy nip up in the bosun's chair and fit a small dinghy mast instead of the block, and run the signal halyard through this. Cost under £100. Now I only need a stumpy stick for the burgee to swivel nicely and it all works simply and well.

Next week we are off on a club rally in chartered yachts and that really will test our high level skills........
 
innesker said:
I had a local guy nip up in the bosun's chair and fit a small dinghy mast instead of the block, and run the signal halyard through this.
Click to expand...

What's the dinghy mast made of? If metal, does such a pole right next to the VHF antenna reduce its effectiveness?

The best answer is still to have two masts :D

Pete
 
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