Diesel

[dsw]

The RYA and BMF (British Marine Federation) can now confirm that the key features of the new scheme for charging duty on marine diesel to be introduced by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) with effect from 1 November 2008 will be:

• Private users can continue to use marked fuel (red diesel) providing they make a simple declaration to the supplier and pay the full duty rate for heavy oil;
• Registered Dealers in Controlled Oils (RDCOs) will be responsible for declaring the duty collected to HMRC; and,
• Fuel purchased for domestic use (i.e. not for propulsion of the craft) can continue to be purchased at the rebated rate.

Under the new scheme, HMRC envisage that boaters will ‘self declare’ whether they are a commercial or recreational vessel and recreational vessels will pay the full duty rate. Fuel used for heating purposes on board will continue to be sold at the rebated rate of duty and the retailer will take the owner's word, again based on self declaration, on what proportion is for heating or lighting and what is for propulsion.

The onus will be on the owner of the boat to self-declare whether they are a commercial or recreational vessel and pay the appropriate rate of duty at the pump. Anyone falsely declaring they own a commercial vessel may be subject to enforcement action by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.

I think that i will keep a 25 ltr can to run my engine and my 80 gal tank for my heating ! problem solved.

 

[Gunfleet]

Sounds like a sensible position at this late stage. I wonder if the customs officers will be as sensible when it comes to interpreting our pre-regime change left overs. I have about sixty litres of fuel on board now (bought as a back-up for crossing the Wash) and never get through anything like that in a season.

 

[vyv_cox]

Why does any of it have to be red, if this is to be the situation? Why don't commercial users buy it at the reduced tax rate and the rest buy it at the full price? If we are going to have to declare static or mobile use, surely the colour doesn't matter? This is how it works in most other European countries, so why not here?

 

[Chris_Robb]

[ QUOTE ]
If we are going to have to declare static or mobile use, surely the colour doesn't matter? This is how it works in most other European countries, so why not here?


[/ QUOTE ]
Viv - it is to do with the fact that most marine outlets only have one tank, so we cannot have 2 types of diesel available. So the self declaring bit is prehaps the only way to do it in the circumstances.

The arguements that we could only have 2 rates of duty NIL and road tax, have rather gone out of the window, as this would have given them the oportnuity for a 3rd rate - Marine leasure which might have meant our fuel costs would be about the same as Europe in general - but no, So perhaps the RYA let us down on this.

As for self declaring how much we use for heating and generating - people had better have a pretty good arguement as to what they use - perhaps a log book of generator hours, main engine for domestic battery charging, and heating. I cannot believe that If I said - 20% was heating use that I would not have to justify it - to their satisfaction......

So each and every one of us will have to work out what their generator and Ebespacher uses per hour, and perhaps what our main engines use during charging - and whilst we are on passage - we are still charging domestic batteries so...... This scarcely comes under the heading of keep it simple stupid!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Work it out by kW, given that the energy comes from the same fuel.

Slow cruise
10kW from engine(s)
3.5kW from heater
1.5kW into batteries to run domestic systems (big alternator(s), inverter etc)

50& of the energy derived from the fuel is being used as domestic energy ergo 50% of the fuel is domestic rate.

Now and again you may need to run the engine for hot water from the calorifier as well.

 

[mortehoe]

My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

It's still going to be the same price after 1 Nov .... and it comes from that same tanker that delivers to me, then the local farm(s) and then marina fuel tank ....

Why bother with paying the extra tax + tax +tax-on-tax +tax-on-tax when if you either have a friendly farmer or an oil fired boiler .... [NB: All oil-fired boilers, including condensing oil fired boilers run quite happily on either 28 sec kerosene or 35 sec gas oil - The correct jets are available for either grade at the SAME price at all heating/plumbing wholesalers.]

Note that I didn't say that you musn't be a dreadful person and cheat those out to rob you ie you must not put heating oil in your diesel engine. Although it is EXACTLY the same product and the same colour as both agricultural fuel oil and central heating oil. If you put it in your diesel then you should (after Nov 1 2008) make a grateful donation of ~45+pence a litre to the Taxman .... But you'll to fill in a form to say where you got the oil from ......

For marine diesels wanting to use 28 sec heating oil, consult your workshop manual to see how to fractionally retard your ignition ... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Note: There is nothing to prevent anybody not having an oil fired boiler in having an un-bunded oil tank in thier garden (or wherever*) being filled from time to time with 35sec central heating oil

*Of course a small.medium/large common oil tank could be a shared item ...... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[vyv_cox]

<< it is to do with the fact that most marine outlets only have one tank, so we cannot have 2 types of diesel available. >>

So why do we need to have two? Why not just white, and be charged the lower rate if it's for static use? That's what they do in France - are they more honest than us?

 

[Chris_Robb]

[ QUOTE ]
<< it is to do with the fact that most marine outlets only have one tank, so we cannot have 2 types of diesel available. >>

So why do we need to have two? Why not just white, and be charged the lower rate if it's for static use? That's what they do in France - are they more honest than us?

[/ QUOTE ]

Viv, it is to do with the fact that red deisel is and will continue to be used by commercial users without paying the extra duty. White deisel is charged to the distributor at the duty included price, which would mean that the commercial users would have to reclaim the duty, for which there is no mechanism. So hense - stay with red, and Customs gets the marina operator to do all his collection for free.

 

[vyv_cox]

Yes, I know.

In France, commercial boat owners turn up at the pumps and buy white diesel at the reduced duty price. We turn up and pay the road users price for the same product. For petrol the same applies, but as there is not so much demand the fuel seller advertises a time when it will be on sale at the low duty price. At L'Aberwrach, for example, it is Tuesday evening between 1700 and 1900.

Adding red dye tells the C&E that the user on the road had/had not paid duty. For marine use it does virtually nothing for anybody, and now that this nonsensical change has been made it will do even less. So why continue with it?

 

[Pye_End]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

Do you know how much heat you get out of 28s and 35s oil - eg electrical equivalent (condensing boiler).

Want to do the maths on this but can't find the information anywhere.

 

[reeac]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how much heat you get out of 28s and 35s oil - eg electrical equivalent (condensing boiler).

Want to do the maths on this but can't find the information anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

From memory I think you get 168,000 Btu from a gallon ie. 49 kWh. and I don't think that it matters much whether it's 28 sec. or 35 sec. oil.

 

[reeac]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

I should add re. my post that I'm quoting total heat from the oil. Some [5-15% depending on the boiler] of that goes up the chimney, the balance providing useful heat to the house or other building.

 

[mortehoe]

Re: Diesel (As said elsewhere)

Central heating oil (35 sec with 5% VAT) (£0.38 a litre inc VAT at 26 March and plus 1001 litres) is EXACTLY the same as red diesel from a marina pump is almost exactly the same as 28 sec white diesel whick already costs £1.12 inc VAT and all the other taxes at the forecourt pump.

Nothing more need be said because the tax on central heating oil will still be the same after Nov 1 2008 - and if you don't trust the heating oil suppliers, then find a friendly farmer /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Pye_End]

Re: Diesel (As said elsewhere)

28s is nearer 50p per l at the moment.

I always thought 35s was more expensive. If it is cheaper and provides the same BTU then why aren't more people using it?

 

[srp]

Re: Diesel (As said elsewhere)

So the red diesel I run my Yanmar on is presumably marine diesel, but is it 28 or 35sec?
What is the stuff in a central heating fuel tank?
What happens if you run a Yanmar on the central heating diesel?
I'm confused.

 

[VicS]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how much heat you get out of 28s and 35s oil

[/ QUOTE ] Some figures and conversion factors HERE

 

[Pye_End]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

Thanks. Had a quick look through but will go through it tomorrow.

You don't happen to know how much a l of kerosene or gas oil weighs?

 

[VicS]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

See also http://www.fueloils.co.uk/doclib/FO_GO_Spec_Sheet.pdf
and http://www.fueloils.co.uk/doclib/FO_BO_Specification.pdf
and http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_liquids.htm

But the more places you look the more different figures you'll find. They vary anyway. At one time, like 40 years ago, I could have told you exactly what sort of range to expect for gas oil!


Never heard of
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[saltwater_gypsy]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

Is red diesel just white diesel with dye in it???
I don't think so. Red diesel is primarily for heating and may not have the additives which make for a smooth-running engine. I have noticed that my engine is less smokey now that I have been running on White diesel for a couple of years.
If the viscosity is different , should the injection system be adjusted in some way?Most yacht engines are marinised car or lorry engines which were never meant to run on gas oil.

 

[Pye_End]

Re: My boiler runs on gas oil (35 sec)

Thanks for this. The SI website looks interesting.

Must admit I hadn't tried googling for the sg's. I had spent quite a bit of time trying to find out how much heat you get out of the 2 oils, but my searches were probably aimed more at plumbing sites rather than calorific value. Should have tried the obvious!