Definition of a Commercial Vessel.

[Mark-1]

A friend sailed a charter boat this weekend fresh from delivery over a lengthy distance by employees of the charter firm. Apropos of nothing it got me thinking about the relevant rules which seem to be here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/282245/mgn280.pdf

Apparently it wasn't taking part in any organized race during the delivery so as a UK flagged vessel if it was deemed to be a "commercial vessel" during the delivery I suppose it must have conformed to the relevant Small Commercial Vessel and Pilot Boat Code of Practice. In this case SCV Cat 0.

Sections 3.1.1 & 3.1.3 appear to define commercial vessel in the above link.

Does the panel think this boat was a commercial vessel during the delivery and required appropriate coding?

 

[alant]

A friend sailed a charter boat this weekend fresh from delivery over a lengthy distance by employees of the charter firm. Apropos of nothing it got me thinking about the relevant rules which seem to be here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/282245/mgn280.pdf

Apparently it wasn't taking part in any organized race during the delivery so as a UK flagged vessel if it was deemed to be a "commercial vessel" during the delivery I suppose it must have conformed to the relevant Small Commercial Vessel and Pilot Boat Code of Practice. In this case SCV Cat 0.

Sections 3.1.1 & 3.1.3 appear to define commercial vessel in the above link.

Does the panel think this boat was a commercial vessel during the delivery and required appropriate coding?

You may have more sense asking MCA compliance section - ask for Mark.

 

[Mark-1]

You may have more sense asking MCA compliance section - ask for Mark.

Not sure the tax payer should be funding the satisfaction of my idle curiosity. I'll take my chances with the collective wisdom of the forum.

 

[Angele]

I'm going to tread carefully here (and naming no names).

My understanding is that a few boats, normally used for commercial charter operations (including racing with paid or paying crew), cross the Atlantic for either a specific event or for a season and then return. If British flagged, these are commercially coded as required for the commercial acitivities they undertake, but that does not necessarily mean they are all Cat 0 coded. If they are not taking paying crew on the cross ocean leg, then these operators are taking the view that they are not operating commercially at that time and so don't need to conform to the most stringent requirements (cat 0).

 

[Tranona]

A friend sailed a charter boat this weekend fresh from delivery over a lengthy distance by employees of the charter firm. Apropos of nothing it got me thinking about the relevant rules which seem to be here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/282245/mgn280.pdf

Apparently it wasn't taking part in any organized race during the delivery so as a UK flagged vessel if it was deemed to be a "commercial vessel" during the delivery I suppose it must have conformed to the relevant Small Commercial Vessel and Pilot Boat Code of Practice. In this case SCV Cat 0.

Sections 3.1.1 & 3.1.3 appear to define commercial vessel in the above link.

Does the panel think this boat was a commercial vessel during the delivery and required appropriate coding?

Whether it needs to be coded depends on the purpose of the voyage. If this was for the benefit of the owner, and your friend was either being paid to deliver it, or not paying any fee other than reasonable expenses (and was acting as crew rather than passenger) it would probably be considered as a leisure rather than a commercial boat - even if activities at either end of the delivery passage were commercial. It would therefore not need to be coded, although it may well be coded (to a different level) for the other activities.

Expect to see this issue examined very closely in the Cheeky Rafiki case.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

The Cat 0 coding requirements are so completely over the top that it's not surprising that sailing organisations try to avoid them.

In my opinion it's the MCA's requirements that are to blame for this.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

The Cat 0 coding requirements are so completely over the top that it's not surprising that sailing organisations try to avoid them.

In my opinion it's the MCA's requirements that are to blame for this.

Hang on, how did I get 2 copies of that?? Rather like having to carry 2 liferafts under Cat 0 rules ....

 

[Twister_Ken]

Hang on, how did I get 2 copies of that??

There's an echo on the 'butt tonight.

 

[Pete R]

A friend sailed a charter boat this weekend fresh from delivery over a lengthy distance by employees of the charter firm. Apropos of nothing it got me thinking about the relevant rules which seem to be here:

All depends on who owned the boat during delivery and obviously what flag it was flying at the time.

If the boat was UK flagged and owned by the charter company then they will be profiting by the boat being moved from A to B and should be relevantly coded. I say "should" as they are not always.

Doesn't matter if someone was paid to deliver it as it is the owner that has to profit for it to be commercial operation.

 

[Talulah]

All depends on who owned the boat during delivery and obviously what flag it was flying at the time.

If the boat was UK flagged and owned by the charter company then they will be profiting by the boat being moved from A to B and should be relevantly coded. I say "should" as they are not always.

Doesn't matter if someone was paid to deliver it as it is the owner that has to profit for it to be commercial operation.

Agreed. The member of public on board is a red herring. Even if there had only been staff on board the boat should be Cat 0 coded. The boat was being moved in the course of the business. You wouldn't expect cargo vessels who were not carrying cargo but on route to their next pick up to be considered non-commercial for that part of the journey. I am curious to know if the company Flying Fish sold Hot Stuff because of the CR episode or wether it was their intention all along.
Regarding Cat 0 being over the top - I'm not so sure. The regulations are there to protect staff and public from unscrupulous operators.

Since 2 April 2009 anyone renewing their commercial endorsement with the RYA has had to sit an online course and exam about Professional Practices and Responsibilities. There is a specific section on "Which of the following is a commercial passage for the purposes of coding." Anyone who has since sat that exam should be in no doubt that a returning trip by a Charter company across the Atlantic is a commercial passage.

 

[dom]

The regulations are there to protect staff and public from scrupulous operators.

Yes, too right!

 

[Talulah]

Hi Tal..
I suppose you forgot an "un" there

You're right. Fixed it.

 

[l'escargot]

Probably easier to turn the question round. Was it a pleasure vessel (which are exempt from coding) and must be used "...solely for sport or recreation by their owners, family, friends or employees or non-profit journeys". If it doesn't meet that qualification it is a commercial vessel.

 

[chinita]

There is a large vessel, here on the Algarve, merrily taking tourists out for a spin every day.

Big SSR number on the hull, wearing the Red Ensign.

Coding? Don't think so. Insurance? Ditto.

Do the UK or Portuguese authorities care? Apparently not.

 

[alant]

There is a large vessel, here on the Algarve, merrily taking tourists out for a spin every day.

Big SSR number on the hull, wearing the Red Ensign.

Coding? Don't think so. Insurance? Ditto.

Do the UK or Portuguese authorities care? Apparently not.

An 'friend', chartered 2 yachts for RTIR & charged money.
He skippered one.
Did he make a profit?
Is he 'commercially endorsed'?
Was he insured?

Would someone with a car driving licence, be able to hire & drive a bus with passengers?

So its ok, because its a yacht race & normal rules & good sense, can be abandoned!

 

[Talulah]

An 'friend', chartered 2 yachts for RTIR & charged money.
He skippered one.
Did he make a profit?
Is he 'commercially endorsed'?
Was he insured?

That may not be as bad as it initially sounds.
The only thing he may be missing is the commercial endorsement.
The boats themselves (because they was chartered) would have been coded.

 

[alant]

That may not be as bad as it initially sounds.
The only thing he may be missing is the commercial endorsement.
The boats themselves (because they was chartered) would have been coded.

As it happened, the weather was clement, so no problem.
However, why have rules, such as "commercial endorsements" or numbers on board, if they can be broken?
What about having 'mandatory insurance', or do the company he chartered from, cover all eventualities, including 3rd party for the/his 'customers'?