Deciding on a sailing boat.

[Steveba]

I am hoping to buy a boat soon and would appreciate any advice whilst i try to get my thoughts in order.

In an ideal world I would like to buy a boat big enough for my family of 5 to all sleep on and that i could also sail single handed, I'd like to have something capable of crossing the channel to France That's the dream but in reality I may be better starting on something a bit smaller to gain experience and keep costs down.

We live in Bedfordshire about 2 hours from the east coast 2.5 hours from south coast solent area. all the family are used to sailing dinghy's on inland lakes and all have had at least 1 weekend away yachting in the solent, with some more planned, I've done a bit more having had a 2 week trip across to France and the channel islands some years ago, have been doing an online dayskipper theory course and will be going to do the dayskipper practical in November.

So the new boat will need to be able to carry 5 for day sailing and have a cabin big enough for at least 2 to sleep on board.

A trailer sailer sounds a good starter boat for me, seem to be plenty around for less than £2k, would allow me a choice of weekend destinations and the kids (and my wife) could take it in turns to join me. quite a few of the ones up to 20 ft long will sleep up to 4. beyond 20 ft then they are getting too heavy to tow behind our present car.

but I'm not over keen on the idea of towing and rigging up every time I use it, if I could find somewhere at reasonable cost that I could leave the boat rigged up on a trailer would be better.

So next up would be something slightly bigger that i could leave on a swinging mooring, i like the idea of a bige keeler that I could get cheaper drying moorings for and also the ability to explore up smaller creeks without too much worry of grounding, boats from about 23 foot upwards seem to start being advertised as 5 berth but could we all squeeze on for an overnight trip on something smaller perhaps using a boom tent in the cockpit.

Next up would be something around 27 foot that would sleep us all but i guess would still be fairly snug over the course of a weeks holiday, I'd want really to keep the budget to less than £6K but might be able to go slightly higher. Don't want to end up with anything too much of a wreck but dont mind doing some work myself tidying up.

So plenty of decisions to make on what boat and also where to keep it. I think the East coast i could possibly find moorings a bit cheaoer than the south coast? Would be quicker to get too and quieter.

The South coast would be a bit further but closer to family and friends.

Any thoughts appreciated, I keep changing my mind about what type of yacht i want to buy from one extreme to the other very hard not to start bidding when something comes up I like the look of. next time I get a weekend free which will be after my dayskipper I'm going to go take a look at a few boats.

 

[Leighb]

I have no particular advice to offer on choice of boat, but as to location I would strongly suggest East Coast rather than South.

You say only 30mins difference between East and South, but that is perhaps the shortest time in good conditions.

The difference in time on a bad day for the M25 will be far greater and is likely to be bad far more often than the roads to the East.

Lots of places to choose from, I am biased and think the Orwell is great and easily accessible from the A14.

You are I am certain correct in thinking that moorings will be far cheaper than on the South Coast and also perhaps more likely to be available.

 

[Quandary]

You are right to be concerned about the time and effort involved in rigging and launching a trailer sailer, but you get round that by keeping the boat ashore at a club and launching when you need it. With 5 in the family, unless some do not want to participate you should try to involve them all in any expedition. That may be easier with a bigger boat on a permanent mooring. You will need to consider all the costs involved, not just the purchase price.
I do not know enough about you to recommend a boat, perhaps better that you make your own selection, but before committing come back for a response on your selection.
Choose your sailing area and join a club there, you will be welcomed and given lots of free advice, pointers and sailing opportunities to help you all get involved. Only a very small minority of clubs are snooty and they are mainly on the South Coast.

 

[EdWingfield]

Lake sailing and Solent sailing has not tested anyone for seasickness problems.

On a channel crossing your able-bodied crew of 5 might soon become a crew of 2.5, the sick ones then requiring attention.

Before you do anything more, go for a sail in big seas with a safe bolt-hole near to hand. You will then know who you have as sailors.

 

[maby]

I think your anticipated budget is low on all accounts and you are going to find yourself faced with a very tatty boat in need of a great deal of work.

Our first boat came off ebay for about £500 and was a thirty year old, 18 foot day-sailer. It was sea-worthy - just - but it was in a pretty terrible state. My wife and I sweated blood getting her back on the water, sailed her several times over a period of a few months, got totally hooked but decided we needed more space - and more comfort.

We replaced that one with a 12 year old, 27 foot Hunter Ranger 265 which cost us over £20k. That was in nice condition - at least once we had given her a thorough clean up - and was pretty comfortable for two adults for a week or more at a time - would have managed five without too much difficulty, though without a lot of privacy.

We outgrew that one as well, and are in the process of upgrading to a 33 footer. We looked at a lot of second hand boats and came to the conclusion that anything costing less than around £35k was just too old and tatty for our liking. In the end we decided to bite the bullet and buy new.

The prices you are suggesting - £2k for a 20 footer ranging up to £6k for a 27 footer - really are very low. There's a little 21 footer down at Medway Yacht Club for about £1700 that might fill the bill (http://www.medwayyachtclub.com/forsale.html#Pandora), but I don't think it comes with any trailer, so the storage costs will soon equal the cost of the boat.

There's also a slightly elderly Colvic 25 that looks reasonable, but that's got an asking price of £8000 - almost certainly not trailerable, so again storage costs are going to mount up.

You'll certainly find that the East coast is cheaper than the south - I was looking at the prices in the Hamble area and they are terrifying. Also, for a relative newcomer in a small boat, you'll find the east coast easier going with lots of sheltered estuaries and little traffic - the Channel can get quite congested and rather windy!

Do your sums carefully, then go out and look at a few boats. Second hand boats are not shifting so easily at the moment, so you really don't want to overstretch yourself, then find that you almost have to give it away because of the costs of storage.

 

[yodave]

Obviously there are loads of boats to choose from out there, but the choice is narrowed when it comes to a bilge-keeler.

We chose a bilge-keel Macwester for our first boat earlier this year - predominantly for family reasons. The accomodation is good, and the prices are accessible. They're heavily-built so won't win any races, but that does mean they're not going to fall to bits when the kids are jumping around ...or if you make an error of judgement.

Your budget might stretch to a Macwester 27. There's a huge variation in condition, so whether it's a Mac or something else ...it's important to shop around.

Good luck!

 

[ProDave]

The prices you are suggesting - £2k for a 20 footer ranging up to £6k for a 27 footer - really are very low.

Not necessarily.

Our 18ft 6 boat cost under £2k complete with trailer and outboard.

It did need a little work, but it was by no means a "project" boat. In fact it turned out the trailer needed more work than the boat.

It will sleep 4 (okay somewhat cosy) and has a lifting keel (they also made a bilge keel version) so would probably do for the OP for that choice to get started.

Even at this size, I would not regard it as a trailer sailor, rather a trailerable sail boat (if you get the gist) It takes us about an hour to rig it prior to launch, and if I had to do that every time, we wouldn't sail much.

Likewise moorings. Our boat lives afloat all summer in a drying harbour so (subject to tide) is always available. That's a better option than launching and recovering every time. As well as the time to rig the boat, factor in the extra trailer maintenance if it gets regularly immersed in salt water on a slipway. And for regular easy launch and recovery you will need a good slipway.

 

[aitchem]

Get a boat you will be happy with and pleases your eye.
Rather than a boat you find at the "right price".

Howard

 

[Bru]

We're pretty well exactly a year ahead of you on exactly the same thought processes

A budget of £6K is feasible

After looking at various examples in a range of conditions, we decided against a trailer sailer on the grounds of lack of comfort below decks and stepped up to what I term a trailable yacht (something too big to trail and rig routinely but small enough to transport by trailer behind a 4x4 occasionally)

We paid a shade under £3k for Brigantia and for that we got a sound boat with a rather elderly 2 stroke outboard and a serviceable rig but little else.

Within weeks we'd spent a further £1.5k on kitting out the boat and ourselves - lifejackets, safety gear, new cooker, new batteries and so on and so forth. You need to take this sort of expenditure into account 'cos it'll come as a nasty shock otherwise when you discover just how quick the cash flies out of the wallet after you buy a boat!

We're not far from you in Northamptonshire and after much consideration, and even after taking into account that our co-owner lives in Somerset, we settled on the Essex/Suffolk coast as being the best place to keep the boat.

We keep her on a swinging mooring at North Fambridge which isn't the cheapest (but is a long way from being the most expensive) however benefits from a free (to moorers) weekend ferry service during the summer months and a 120m deep water pontoon with water and leccy which we can use for brief periods f.o.c. and overnight for a moderate charge of £10. Short walk to a good pub too

Which reminds me, if you're on a swinging mooring you'll need a tender and your looking at £250 upwards for an old but serviceable dinghy - you can pay a lot more than that of course - and the same again or more if you want an outboard for it (we just row ours)

To be honest, we have decided that after our first year with Brigantia we would really like something a fair bit bigger - this is not entirely unexpected - but it'll be a couple of years at least before we can afford anything significantly bigger. Not that buying Brigantia was a mistake, she's the best boat we can or could have afforded right now

I'd recommend a trip to Woodbridge in Suffolk for a wander around Andy Seedhouse's sales yard. Odds are he'll have various boats up for sale that might fit the bill and you can compare the pros and cons of several different boats.

You'd also be more than welcome to come and have a look at Brigantia - not that she's for sale or anything (unless somebody offered us stoopid money for her ) but from everything you say I reckon something similar will probably end up being the best compromise for you

 

[PetiteFleur]

You should visit the Used Boat Fair at Suffolk Yacht Harbour which is this weekend coming, 28th, 29th & 30th Oct. You'll be able to see plenty of boats and compare them. Most will be over your budget but it's good to look around and compare. See:- http://www.clarkeandcarter.co.uk/ne...yacht-motorboat-fair-28th-–-30th-october-2011
Felixstowe Ferry Boatyard has a Pegasus 800 for sale at £6k(from memory) which is nearby on the River Deben.

 

[PetiteFleur]

You should visit the Used Boat Fair at Suffolk Yacht Harbour which is this weekend coming, 28th, 29th & 30th Oct. You'll be able to see plenty of boats and compare them. Most will be over your budget but it's good to look around and compare. See:- http://www.clarkeandcarter.co.uk/ne...yacht-motorboat-fair-28th-–-30th-october-2011
Felixstowe Ferry Boatyard has a Pegasus 800 for sale at £6k(from memory) which is nearby on the River Deben.

C&C also have a Pegasus 800 so you'll be able to see the details.

 

[SAWDOC]

Lake sailing and Solent sailing has not tested anyone for seasickness problems.

On a channel crossing your able-bodied crew of 5 might soon become a crew of 2.5, the sick ones then requiring attention.

Before you do anything more, go for a sail in big seas with a safe bolt-hole near to hand. You will then know who you have as sailors.

I consider that very poor advice to the OP who may well find himself in the temporary disabled section of the crew and conclude that sailing is a hazardour undertaking for families, when in fact we have found the opposite to be the case, not by sailing off into big seas but by increasing our skill level one step at a time.
We started sailing as a family in an Offshore 8 metre which was ideal for two, fun for 4 but tight for 5. She was sold to a fellow club member and as recently as last week I had a lovely afternoon out on her. Reasonably priced boats that do sail well, if you can find one that has been sailed and maintained as she should be.

 

[benw]

Agree with much that has been said in response to the OP. We made the gradual journey with three young children from £3k Swift 18 trailer sailor kept at Rutland Water but towed extensively including to Falmouth, progressing to a £12k Evolution 25 lift keel and then to a£28k Sadler 32bk. Only 2 yrs in between each and lots of cash spent on upgrades etc.
We are now looking to upsize again!
We have been able to realise our aspirations for several Nth Sea crossings as well as some great passages locally and up to the Pool of London St Kats with our latest purchase and we are probably not far away from our ideal size 36ft.
My advice would be to identify a yacht that provides enough scope size wise as well as capacity for you to grow in confidence and take on the longer more demanding passages. Being able to comfortably handle our Sadler 32 single handed or with 2 on board enables the most to be made of our East coast weather and destinations.
East coast based R Orwell ensures access to the boat and cruising grounds all tide and in severe weather the chance to stay within two rivers ensures days are not lost. A good variety of marinas and anchorages cater for all budgets.

 

[Seajet]

I consider that very poor advice to the OP who may well find himself in the temporary disabled section of the crew and conclude that sailing is a hazardour undertaking for families, when in fact we have found the opposite to be the case, not by sailing off into big seas but by increasing our skill level one step at a time.
We started sailing as a family in an Offshore 8 metre which was ideal for two, fun for 4 but tight for 5. She was sold to a fellow club member and as recently as last week I had a lovely afternoon out on her. Reasonably priced boats that do sail well, if you can find one that has been sailed and maintained as she should be.

I agree, I have sailed in the Solent for over 40 years - which the person saying that VERY clearly hasn't - and seen a fair few very green faces !

 

[V1701]

Welcome to the forums Steve,
How about a Newbridge, some here, or a Snapdragon, some here. If you're quite practical and don't mind putting in significant time and elbow grease it's surprising what can be achieved. So as long as the basics are OK, that's hull, engine, sails, cushions, standing rigging, basic instruments I don't see a problem getting going for £6k or less but do allow for the ongoing costs. Get a book on surveying a yacht as well. Good luck and ignore the naysayers...

 

[Burnham Bob]

that's good advice to visit the boat show at Levington. we started out on a halcyon 23 which will just about sleep 4 but not 5 unless one of you sleeps in the cockpit, but is quite comfortable for two and sails well. you can pick them up for around 3-4k.

however, a trip to Levington will show you some real boats to walk round, look at, see for yourself. the choice is pretty good and if the majority are out of your price bracket, at least you'll have seen what the market is like and what's available. don't be afraid of making an offer if you see something as i don't think boats are moving too well in the current climate.

 

[Seajet]

How about a Newbridge, or a Snapdragon,

Has this chap personally upset you in some way ?!!!

 

[Yacht Yogi]

Right boat for the right location

Our family started out yachting just like yours by moving from sailing dinghies on a lake to a 20ft trailer sailor. Ours was a Jeanneau Sun 2000 and was a delight to sail. Downside was a porta-potti loo in the cabin with no privacy and it took the best part of 2 hours from pulling into the car park to sailing away, by which time we were knackered from hoisting, heaving and loading up all the equipment and outboard. We later put her onto a mooring in Poole Harbour which was expensive and a longer drive but we could just turn up and go sailing...much more enjoyable. Later we moved her to a club drying mooring at Southampton which was cheaper and a shorter drive. We did the Round-The-Island in this boat but once out in the Solent it was not the place for a gentle family sail.

We decided to move up a size or two (28ft Beneteau). We now have an indoor loo and a boat that we can comfortably sail beyond the Solent to explore the coastal harbours. We can and do race her too and she provides fast and interesting (for ex-dinghy sailors) sailing.

Lessons learned:
1. Choose a boat to suit your sailing area and realistic ambitions. I don't know the East Coast but for the Solent (avoid M25 on a Fridays by using A34) I'd suggest you go for something at least 26' (Contessa possibly) and you won't need a bilge keeler because everywhere is deep enough except the more obscure corners. A lift keel might save you cost on moorings though.
2. Your budget won't get you a well equipped, ocean-crossing, 3-cabin cruiser. So be realistic about what you will do every weekend not just the one or two annual expeditions. You can always charter something bigger for a cross-channel trip.
3. A small boat is slow. Combine that with strong tidal flows and you are limiting your journey options. A couple of knots extra speed with a bigger boat opens up more destinations more of the time. It also means you can get back home if you miss a tidal gate.
4. You get the same wind no matter what size of boat you have but when the wind kicks up a 28 footer will be a lot more pleasant than a 20 footer. What's the normal wind in your chosen sailing area? In the Solent most sunny summer afternoons run at 15-20 knots once the sea breeze has set in.

 

[rob2]

Your summary of your own situation is pretty comprehensive - well done. Whichever way you decide to go, it is often a neccessary part of the activity to join a sailing club, it gives you access to a slipway and somewhere to park both car and trailer with any luck. Hot showers, a bar and even hot food to round off the day are bonuses. I wouldn't try to suggest that you join a club before you find a boat, although I would myself if I found one that suited my plans. You will meet other members who will be able to tell you what boats are on the market locally, offer advice on the local sailing area and also maybe give you the opportunity to crew on a range of different boats. Heavy cruisers will not behave like a dinghy, they will feel quite ponderous by comparison of course and the work is heavier, but until you've sailed a few, how can you guess whether you'll like the boats you're looking at? You'll quite likely to be swayed by the boat you do your dayskipper course on, but that's likely to be pretty upmarket compared to a working man's budget.

Boats are like tents, if the brochure says it sleeps five, then it'll be comfortable for three! I don't think you said what size you children are, but my own boat has rather short, narrow forepeak berths, so for adults only lovers would want to share. But if you're a family who are happy to go camping together it'll be fine.

I bought my boat my boat on the East Coast, but sail in the Solent. I would have liked to have kept her up there for a year for the experience, it looks nice. The boat, incidentally, is a fin keel so needs a swinging mooring (or more) but we only touched the bottom once whilst finding our way out of the Blackwater.

Rob.

 

[Steveba]

Thanks everyone.

Thank you everyone for all the advice so far, given me plenty to think about.

I'm liking the sound of the east coast but it's not an area I'm familiar with at the moment, but am planning a few visits to look at boatyards and visit marinas etc in the near future, might just be able to make the boatshow on Sunday, though I wont be buying until after the Dayskipper course. just to give me more time to think about what I really want.

At the moment I'm favouring a smaller 15 to 17ft trailer sailer (west wight potter 15, skipper 17 or similar) enough for me and one other to go away for weekends, especailly as my wife is keen to go on a flotilla holiday this year, that way we get the bigger boat for the main holidays but can still get time away in charge of my own boat at weekends.

will probably of changed my mind again by tommorrow.