Debutante and Mystic - How long do plywood boats last?

[carl170]

I currently own a caprice MK4 (GRP hull, plywood deck and cabin). I really like a lot of Robert Tucker designs. After a trip down the Tyne with a mate of mine, (who seemed to struggle with the small dimension of the caprice), I have been wondering about a bigger boat.

I have a few books from the 60's and they all mention Robert Tucker and his plywood creations. One book in particular focuses on the Caprice, Debutant and Mystic. As there are hardly any examples of the Mystic and only about 5 Debutantes on the net, I was wondering wether any of these boats are a safe investment, or if I would be throwing money away?

Does all plywood eventually delaminate and rot? Or does the lack of examples of these botas suggest most were neglected?

Also do any of these sail very well? I think they are lovely looking boats, the mystic particularly (I may be in a minority though).

Regards

Carl

 

[Seajet]

The first boat I ever sailed on was a Mystic, I agree a very pretty boat, but VERY VERY SLOW !!!

I haven't seen one or a Deb' for a while, if you are handy with DIY and can do a serious check - (my chum's keel bolts failed on one side at her mooring, she appeared immaculate, that was about 1972ish) she'd be cheap I imagine.

Try 'Mad Hatter' of these forums, pretty sure he has a Mystic; I'd love to see one in use again, though think I'll pass on owning !

Self a distant speck on the foredeck here, aged about 8 -10...

 

[theoldsalt]

I had a debutante for several years back in the late 60s and early 70s. Previous to that I had a plywood Caprice but didn't get along with it. Loved the Deb'. The chap I bought it from bought a Macwester 26 but I could sail rings around him in light airs. Sold the Deb in the mid 70s when delamination started setting in and I got tired of replacing panels. Delamination is more likely if the ply is not protected by GRP sheathing but then if it happens it's more difficult to see.

TheDeb' isa bit like the modern day centre cockpit boats due to its large aft deck and locker.

 

[oldharry]

I sailed a Mystic several years in the 70s, nice seaworthy little boats with plenty of room below decks. Reasonably fast by the standards of the time, but like most Tucker bilge keelers, not brilliant to windward - very similar to the plywood Caprice (which i also owned in a Mk2 version.)

Plywood life? There are very few of these plywood boats left now. Their average life was around 25 years, or when sheathed from new possibly 30 years, assuming they remained in comission and were looked after. There were several problems. The glues used on the 60s boats were inferior and tended to dry out after 20 - 25 years. This causes failure of the seams, water ingress both above and below and rampant rot as the water seeps into the ply internal laminates from which it can not escape again. Nearly always, ply hulls of this era fail from the top down - rain water has much the same effect as battery acid in the longer term, and as the hulls aged, deck joints opened up and allowed rain water ingress into the structure with devastating results long term. Some people glued canvas over the ply to try to protect it. Short term this was fairly succesful, but in the long term it made things worse as the canvas actually drew water in to the end grains, accelerating the failures.

Ply wood hulls are almost infintely repairable by anyone with basic carpentering skills, but it is too easy for an old plywood hull to deteriorate beyond the point of economic repair. The last plywood boat I owned (a 22 foot Seamew by Bell Woodworking) was eventually broken up when we realised it would actually be cheaper, quicker and easier to build another from scratch than to dismantle and replace all the damaged sheeting and frames. A shame. as she was a lovely boat to sail. She was 28 years old and had been quite well looked after most of her life, too. And of course it only takes two or three years of neglect, standing half full of rainwater in the back of someones yard or garden for the whole structure to become thoroughly rotten.

However there are still occasionally good ones to be found. Stored dry indoors they will survive indefinitely, and of course there are some around which have benefitted from a major rebuild using modern glues and epoxies to seal the sheeting before, durng and after construction. These can be expected to have a much longer life if properly looked after. Sadly, though most of them had passed the point of no return before these materials became available.

 

[contessaman]

my dad had a debutante when I was a boy. it was from the 1950's. at great effort he sanded the whole thing back to wood and covered it in west system epoxy. it was sold on and still in regular use until the mid 90's. Then a year or so ago my wife and I had gone surfing in portcawl and walking along the front with an icecream afterwards we saw the very same old deb sat ashore. Sadly it had been vadalized the petter mini 6 diesel had gone, the hatches were left open and it was probably rotting from the inside out.

Dads was built by banks's from mahogony ply and the only place it used to rot was around the toerail/rubbing strake area from rainwater. below the waterline was solid. Keel was odd, an iron bottom, spaced from hull on a grp stub . plus this one had extra lead cheeks bolted to the keel. It sailed better than it looked like it might. sure enough it wasnt quick but it took us safely all over the bristol channel.

you should see if its still there and what condition its in It will be a shame to see the old girl end up as firewood. A hell of a lot more room than a caprice and almost centre cockpit with the huge lazarette.

 

[Lakesailor]

Does Sixpence still have his Debutante?

Bet he doesn't get much chance to use her if he still has her.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Plywood boats are easy to repair and even to replace whole panes; if you know what you are doing and if you have money and plenty of time. Life of marine ply is approx 15 to 25 years. However the problem is not salt water, as salt will "pickle" the wood, the main problem is rain water which rots the deck and eats into the hull.

The cost of marine ply is very, very high and the cost of epoxy is equally as high; you will need a lot of epoxy and glass cloth to cover deck etc., unless it has been done already.

I owned a nice ply 24 ft sailing boat in the 80's and I spend a fortune on it; it s still floating in Cardiff bay, but never again; too hard work maintaining it.

 

[Saltram31]

Skents

Search for formite Skents. Here's his website. www.theiguana.co.uk He used to work with the late Alan Pape and built his 40ft Van de Stadt in wood.

 

[jeanne]

Don't try it.

I had a Tucker designed plywood boat [an Aleph, I think, a 24 ft centre cockpit cruiser ] in 1974- I have no idea how old it was then.
It became clear that it had a patch of rot below the water line. I tried my hardest to establish how far the rot had progressed, with a hammer to test for the 'ring' of sound wood, with spikes and drills testing the resistance the of the ply. Then I cut out the panel a foot [ 300 cm, for our newer readers] beyond the point that I had thought was the last of the rot. When I had cut it out, there was still rot to be seen in the central laminations, undetected and undetectable.
I followed the traditional advice given as the answer to the question 'What do I do about a bad case of rot in my boat' which is 'Sell it!'
I suppose that if you don't want to own a boat forever, ply is as good as any other medium in the short term. But that is not the commonly held view, our boats become our babies, to be cherished. So I would put an old ply boat at the bottom of my wish list, however cheap they are to buy.
A more modern ply boat, epoxy glued and sheathed may be a different proposition, but you will still have to overcome the prospective buyers prejudice against it.

 

[paulm299]

I had a Matilda ketch in the 1990's . Never leaked and no sign of rot . Had a Dolphin reversing two stroke inboard .

 

[oldsaltoz]

There are still a few world war mine detectors made from plt still in use today.

 

[Slow_boat]

There are plenty of Eventides still going strong.

 

[Tranona]

There are plenty of Eventides still going strong.

Yes, my Eventide is still going strong, having been built in 1963. However, not only was it built using the best ply available at the time, but the hull is Cascover sheathed. The deck and coachroof is not sheathed and has suffered localised rot. Part of the reason for its good condition is that I have looked after it for 30 years - not that I claim to be good shipwright, but I deal with problems as they come up.

Many of the smaller and home built boats did not use the best ply and methods of construction left lots of places for fresh water to get in, which leads to rot of the inner veneers. Add to that the boats have low value and people tend not to keep them, so they get into a downward spiral of neglect. Annoyingly, they are not easy to break up, nor do they burn well, so just slowly decay in back gardens and the dead boat part of boatyards.

 

[Sixpence]

Does Sixpence still have his Debutante?

Bet he doesn't get much chance to use her if he still has her.

Phil, thank you so much for the 'hint' in the lounge and link to this thread you know very well that I don't have time or the inclination to even read anywhere other than the ECF or Lounge these days after IPC sold all the information about Sixpence to a company I have been banned from after attempting to retrieve said information
But as it's you
Yes, I still have her, and yes, she is little used these days, but not through want or fault on her behalf. Last time out she performed perfectly, and I am still very proud of my girl

She does need a bit of a clean up now though, but some people recognise her when they park up, as being a Debutante, but these days she does have one or two extra bits as you know

But then, after all, they are only fit for firewood these days, if you take as gospel those that think that way

I'm not even going to start on the 'glass it over' lot, that caused more rot than it prevented boat ownership is just that to me, you don't own it for life, it only belongs to you until it finds someone better

 

[carl170]

^^^ That debutante is stunning! Examples like that are why I like the design.

However, looking through the posts, there are a few people who still have plywood boats and these seem to be OK.

Next question, How do you identify a boat that is no good? Jeanne talks about one that had rot through the middle laminates. Can you find this out before buying a ply boat? Is there a standard test? Also, is it usual for the inner laminates to wick this far? I cut out some rotten stanchion supports and not all the plies were wet (just enough to ensure they were useless!)

Dave (Sixpence), what sort of state was Sixpence in when you bought her? What work did you have to do to bring her up to that standard? Also do you have a blog or anything? I would love to see some more pictures.

Regards

Carl

 

[Tranona]

You usually get a dull sound when you tap a rotting piece of ply. Ply very rarely fails in the middle of a panel - it is usually from an edge where it is joined to another panel such as deck edges, particularly where fresh water can rest. Other vulnerable areas are butt joins of panels, particularly over supporting timbers and internall where water gathers such as above chines and stringers. Cockpits are potentially weak because of exposure to water and the many joints needed to fabricate. A cockpit cover is a boon, even if the cockpit itself is self draining. Lifting or cracking paint can give a guide to where problems might lie and sealant coming out of places such as where mouldings are used to cover joints raise suspicions.

 

[carl170]

You usually get a dull sound when you tap a rotting piece of ply. Ply very rarely fails in the middle of a panel - it is usually from an edge where it is joined to another panel such as deck edges, particularly where fresh water can rest. Other vulnerable areas are butt joins of panels, particularly over supporting timbers and internall where water gathers such as above chines and stringers. Cockpits are potentially weak because of exposure to water and the many joints needed to fabricate. A cockpit cover is a boon, even if the cockpit itself is self draining. Lifting or cracking paint can give a guide to where problems might lie and sealant coming out of places such as where mouldings are used to cover joints raise suspicions.

How far can it wick in from an edge of the ply though? It sounds as though the post from Jeanne was suggesting that water can wick through the whole piece of ply by the inner plies (which is pretty worrying!). If that is common, then it sounds like a real risk buying ANYTHING made from Plywood!

Regards

Carl

 

[Tranona]

It depends on so many things - but yes, in extremes a whole panel can rot from the edge. Poor veneers, poor glue, long term exposure to water (particularly fresh) all contribute. On the other hand, good quality ply well put together structure and protection from fresh water and it can have a very long life as boats like mine show. However, most ply boats were cheap and cheerful and lost value when GRP came along, so end up at the bottom of the heap as it is not economic to carry out major repairs and reconstructions.

 

[Lakesailor]

Look at this boat. Left many years under a tarpaulin. The ply panels are obviously going near the joints, but the fact that the paint has blown means that at least the surface layer has got extensive damp.
This boat was (apparently) one of the last ply production boats and one of the first to be fitted with outdrives. So I am told.

 

[chrishelen]

My Eventide was built in 1986, she was cascovered from new,i owned her for 6 years and never found any soft ply or rot. and when i sold her 2 years ago she was as sound as the day she was launched.