De-Registering French Boat to Put on SSR -

[dpb]

We have bought a French Registered boat to keep in France under SSR.
SSR all done.
Broker helping with De Registration has passed on request from French Customs for "Le Certificat d'Exportation à faire réaliser par un transitaire en douane"
Which to me translates to Certificate of Exportation issued by a Customs Forwarder.
It is the only thing outstanding at the moment.
I have failed to work out what this is.
I have asked broker for more details of what is wanted and wondered if anyone hear had come across this?
Thanks

 

[Hurricane]

You will probably need to register a UK MMSI for the radio.
You will probably need to send the VHF off to have the new (UK) MMSI progremmed in.
If fitted, don't forget to change the AIS transponder's MMSI as well.

 

[westernman]

We have bought a French Registered boat to keep in France under SSR.
SSR all done.
Broker helping with De Registration has passed on request from French Customs for "Le Certificat d'Exportation à faire réaliser par un transitaire en douane"
Which to me translates to Certificate of Exportation issued by a Customs Forwarder.
It is the only thing outstanding at the moment.
I have failed to work out what this is.
I have asked broker for more details of what is wanted and wondered if anyone hear had come across this?
Thanks

It translates as "The Export Certificate to be issued by a Customs Broker".
This sounds like the seller is a company of some kind and they are trying to avoid paying the VAT or recover the VAT they have paid as the boat is being exported from the EU.

But you are not exporting it. Make it clear to the broker that the boat is staying put in France and that you are not a resident.

You want "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français".

As you are not resident in France, you cannot keep the boat on the french registry anyway.

Actually, it is probably more of a concern for the person selling the boat because until it is removed from the french registry they are liable for the annual tax.

 

[DavidJ]

You don’t mention if the boat is VAT paid but from westernman’s excellent posting above it could be worth a double check….you could be liable.

 

[westernman]

You don’t mention if the boat is VAT paid but from westernman’s excellent posting above it could be worth a double check….you could be liable.

I am not completely sure, but normally in France (certainly for things other than boats, including real estate for instance), when a company sells something to a private individual, then it is the company which pays the VAT and the company is obliged to quote prices to the private individual which are TTC. (Toutes Taxes Comprises).

When a private individual sells to a another private individual in France, then there is no VAT "event".

In the past I have created a company which has bought some real estate from the builder and reclaimed the VAT on the real estate price. This is easy enough to do. Thereafter you have to pay VAT on the rent but can reclaim VAT on any work which is needed. And of course pay VAT as well as capital gains when selling.

 

[DavidJ]

[QUOTE="westernman, post: 7833361, member: 32271"
When a private individual sells to a another private individual in France, then there is no VAT "event".
[/QUOTE]
Ah! the point I’m making is that if VAT has never been paid eg Charter business, then you are liable to pay on current value.

 

[dpb]

You will probably need to register a UK MMSI for the radio.
You will probably need to send the VHF off to have the new (UK) MMSI progremmed in.
If fitted, don't forget to change the AIS transponder's MMSI as well.

Thanks for the replies so far.
Hurricane:
Whilst not done yet I am aware of that one. It is on the to do list.

 

[dpb]

It translates as "The Export Certificate to be issued by a Customs Broker".
This sounds like the seller is a company of some kind and they are trying to avoid paying the VAT or recover the VAT they have paid as the boat is being exported from the EU.

But you are not exporting it. Make it clear to the broker that the boat is staying put in France and that you are not a resident.

You want "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français".

As you are not resident in France, you cannot keep the boat on the french registry anyway.

Actually, it is probably more of a concern for the person selling the boat because until it is removed from the french registry they are liable for the annual tax.

Thanks Westernman. The boat has been bought from a private individual through a broker. Both are fully aware that we are leaving the boat where it is, and that we are resident in UK.
The Broker has applied for "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français". and it is the people he applies to, les douannes I think, that have asked for the extra document.

 

[dpb]

You don’t mention if the boat is VAT paid but from westernman’s excellent posting above it could be worth a double check….you could be liable.

Thanks, It is definately VAT paid as I have the original Invoices from when it was sold new.

 

[Hurricane]

Thanks Westernman. The boat has been bought from a private individual through a broker. Both are fully aware that we are leaving the boat where it is, and that we are resident in UK.
The Broker has applied for "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français". and it is the people he applies to, les douannes I think, that have asked for the extra document.

It would also be a good idea to get some documentary evidence (marina bills or a certificate from the marina) that the boat was in EU waters on the night of the 31st December 2020. This would prove that the boat is an EU Good and thus not subject to further VAT charges whilst she is kept in EU waters.

 

[westernman]

When a private individual sells to a another private individual in France, then there is no VAT "event".

Ah! the point I’m making is that if VAT has never been paid eg Charter business, then you are liable to pay on current value.

Not really. It is the obligation of the business selling it to a private individual to pay the VAT due on any transaction.
A private person is never liable to pay the VAT directly to the tax authorities nor to account for it except in the case of importation.

 

[Portofino]

It would also be a good idea to get some documentary evidence (marina bills or a certificate from the marina) that the boat was in EU waters on the night of the 31st December 2020. This would prove that the boat is an EU Good and thus not subject to further VAT charges whilst she is kept in EU waters.

Hang on it’s on the Fr register right now in France and staying in Fr .
Op will have the Fr radiation doc s I can’t see a need for any thing more as it’s owned by a private individual or was the paper trail shows that .


All he needs to do is desist from scallop fishing after the red duster is hoisted

 

[westernman]

Thanks Westernman. The boat has been bought from a private individual through a broker. Both are fully aware that we are leaving the boat where it is, and that we are resident in UK.
The Broker has applied for "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français". and it is the people he applies to, les douannes I think, that have asked for the extra document.

They have no reason to ask for "un Certificat d'Exportation à faire réaliser par un transitaire en douane" and you should not sign it. You are not exporting the boat.

I will just add, as you have already registered your boat in the UK, you don't really care about the "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français". Some registries (in particular the French one), want to have such a certificate in order to register a boat on their registry to ensure that the boat is not on two registers at the same time. But you have already registered it in the UK, so you don't need this certificate.

But your seller needs it. In order to stop paying the annual navigation tax.
So it is his problem, not yours.

 

[Portofino]

Thanks, It is definately VAT paid as I have the original Invoices from when it was sold new.

Irrelevant .
As it could have been anywhere world wide ie in / out of the EU ( proper exported not cruising ) multiple times since the date on the invoice.
All you need is the Fr reg and eventually dereg the radiation docs ……the last piece of paper not the first .

 

[Portofino]

They have no reason to ask for "un Certificat d'Exportation à faire réaliser par un transitaire en douane" and you should not sign it. You are not exporting the boat.

I will just add, as you have already registered your boat in the UK, you don't really care about the "un certificat de radiation du pavillon français". Some registries (in particular the French one), want to have such a certificate in order to register a boat on their registry to ensure that the boat is not on two registers at the same time. But you have already registered it in the UK, so you don't need this certificate.

But your seller needs it. In order to stop paying the annual navigation tax.
So it is his problem, not yours.

Hmm ??
From Fr eyes they are trans ownership to a 3 P .In effect exportation thats why .

Its location is irrelevant .

As per pre SSR ing ——— while on AN Other reg he has committed an offence i believe .
Yup an offence.

There is a honesty box tick ( outlines the law ) which the applicant says it’s not reg on AN Other reg .

How ever in the real world logistically this happens while the sellers irradiation process starts …..bit of a gray area .
Delays irradiating them and haste to SSR mean “ errors “ are accidentally made with the SSR application. Nuff said .
By the time the “;error “ is realised by the applicant it’s all over the irradiation comes through if you know what I mean ?

Typically for ownership reasons to mitigate from any grab back( not for VAT reasons ); it’s not unknown for hypothetically on completion day of a EU boat purchase to sail off , hair dryer decals off and plaster on the SSR decals .Nothing to do with VAT though.

 

[DavidJ]

Not really. It is the obligation of the business selling it to a private individual to pay the VAT due on any transaction.
A private person is never liable to pay the VAT directly to the tax authorities nor to account for it except in the case of importation.

That’s interesting, so the boats you see advertised in MB&Y as ex VAT, the owner is liable to pay VAT not the buyer (assuming no importation)

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

That’s interesting, so the boats you see advertised in MB&Y as ex VAT, the owner is liable to pay VAT not the buyer (assuming no importation)

The ex Vat will mean for the quoted price. A company selling to a private EU person, cannot sell the boat ex Vat, or it will be committing a fraud.
For a British customer to buy the boat Vat free now should be possible.

 

[dpb]

Thanks all.
I have asked the broker to seek clarification as to what is wanted, as I can't get an exportation cert for something not exported.
I note the comments re being now registered in two countries but too late to do much about that. Though the application date for the de registration is the same as the date for the SSR registration start.
I will report back on what happens.

 

[westernman]

The ex Vat will mean for the quoted price. A company selling to a private EU person, cannot sell the boat ex Vat, or it will be committing a fraud.
For a British customer to buy the boat Vat free now should be possible.

A price quoted ex VAT means it is being sold by a company. If sold to a private individual, VAT will be added unless the goods are being exported from EU/EEA (GB??).
Also a company buying the goods quoted ex VAT will know that they won't pay the VAT or will pay it and can get it repaid/deducted from their monthly VAT return.

 

[DavidJ]

Actually, it is probably more of a concern for the person selling the boat because until it is removed from the french registry they are liable for the annual tax.

I guess the French HMRC (whatever?) are keen not to “loose” a boat after a sale so they can “luxury” tax the next owner.
Of course not relevant to the OP but a fascinating topic and one that will reoccur as Brits will be tending to buy in the EU rather than export their UK boats for Med use.