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Deleted member 478
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Do any of you have an opinion on the pros and cons of having daggerboards on a cruising catamaran?
Thanks
Thanks
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
great for shallow draft and windward performance. can be dangerous if left down in heavy weather as they encourage tripping. if you hit bottom at any speed they are liable to break at best, split the hull at worst. leaky boxes are a potential problem.
i would personally not want them though many think they are the only way to go. derek kelsall who designed my boat always specifies them with low-aspect keels as a lower-performance option. if you're wanting the extra performance of dagger boards he also recommends you use outboards rather than diesels, something i also wouldn't consider.
if you have davver boards you should make sure the hulls have grounding shoes that project far enough to lift the hulls above any stones on the bottom when you dry out.
i would personally not want them though many think they are the only way to go. derek kelsall who designed my boat always specifies them with low-aspect keels as a lower-performance option. if you're wanting the extra performance of dagger boards he also recommends you use outboards rather than diesels, something i also wouldn't consider.
if you have davver boards you should make sure the hulls have grounding shoes that project far enough to lift the hulls above any stones on the bottom when you dry out.
D
Deleted member 478
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Thanks Chris
The weigh up for me is can a cat get off a lee shore without daggerboards in F6 - Fn without engines?
The weigh up for me is can a cat get off a lee shore without daggerboards in F6 - Fn without engines?
ParaHandy
Well-Known Member
Smug git cat owner ...
as told to me ... the beauty of a cat was that she was sufficiently quick to avoid such crap weather ...
dagger boards on racing cats v. useful upwind but would the gubbins that holds it all together on a crusing cat not intrude overmuch into the living (shagging?) space?
as told to me ... the beauty of a cat was that she was sufficiently quick to avoid such crap weather ...
dagger boards on racing cats v. useful upwind but would the gubbins that holds it all together on a crusing cat not intrude overmuch into the living (shagging?) space?
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Deleted member 478
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Re: Smug git cat owner ...
yes, yes, yes... Forget about cats for the moment. I still want to know where the three girls are in the Cunliff photo?
yes, yes, yes... Forget about cats for the moment. I still want to know where the three girls are in the Cunliff photo?
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Smug git cat owner ...
Agree with Leopard, boring but sensible answer to a silly question. Of course you can sail off a lee shore with low aspect fixed keels dummy, thats what they are for. Drop keels are for racing machines not cruising boats. 'Orrible things. As far as you and Para are concerned you have just confirmed my suspicions about your true inclinations and should inscribe a large W above your anchors....
Agree with Leopard, boring but sensible answer to a silly question. Of course you can sail off a lee shore with low aspect fixed keels dummy, thats what they are for. Drop keels are for racing machines not cruising boats. 'Orrible things. As far as you and Para are concerned you have just confirmed my suspicions about your true inclinations and should inscribe a large W above your anchors....
jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
Re: Smug git cat owner ...
Hey! That's a bit sharp Mike.
I would want daggerboards when I buy a cat. Problem is not many cruising cats have them - Catana's excepted. Daz Newton of Multihull Composites does a great series of cruiser/racer cats including my current dream boat the Daz Cat 10 and my wet dream boat, her 11.5m sister. These have dagger boards and go like stink.
Daggerboards are great for performance and give ultra shallow draught but there are problems including the already mentioned intrusion into the living space, need for grounding plates (and protected props and strengthened rudder stocks), and vulnerability to damage.
The danger of increased capsize risk is real, but sensible heavy weather disciplines can actually make them safer. In big seas first raise both boards by a half, then raise the leeboard completely so that, if the windward hull lifts the boat will immediatly slide to leeward rather than capsize (so the theory goes, anyway). Finally, in extremis, both boards can be fully lifted when you heave to.
Hey! That's a bit sharp Mike.
I would want daggerboards when I buy a cat. Problem is not many cruising cats have them - Catana's excepted. Daz Newton of Multihull Composites does a great series of cruiser/racer cats including my current dream boat the Daz Cat 10 and my wet dream boat, her 11.5m sister. These have dagger boards and go like stink.
Daggerboards are great for performance and give ultra shallow draught but there are problems including the already mentioned intrusion into the living space, need for grounding plates (and protected props and strengthened rudder stocks), and vulnerability to damage.
The danger of increased capsize risk is real, but sensible heavy weather disciplines can actually make them safer. In big seas first raise both boards by a half, then raise the leeboard completely so that, if the windward hull lifts the boat will immediatly slide to leeward rather than capsize (so the theory goes, anyway). Finally, in extremis, both boards can be fully lifted when you heave to.
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Deleted member 478
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Re: Smug git cat owner ...
Boatmike
Who's your "dummy" and are you saying that ParaHandy and I are wankers?
Boatmike
Who's your "dummy" and are you saying that ParaHandy and I are wankers?
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Smug git cat owner ...
One of the problems, to be serious is that the daggerboards on many cats are not engineered very well. With a monohull you can have a swing keel that will swing up if you hit something. With a cat which as you say "goes like stink" imagine what happens when you hit something...... I have seen dagger boards sheared off at the hull but thats not the problem. I also saw an Aussie boat where the dagger board had sliced a lump out of the hull after grounding that you could drive a trollybus through with the poles up..... Also when sailing in big seas the boat cannot slide sideways down a wave like low aspect keels can which means the worse the sea conditions the more you have to raise the leeward dagger board to avoid tripping or pitchpoling. A necessary evil in a racing design therefore but not on a cruising boat I feel. But hey we are all different and if speed is more important than safety you would not have a boat like mine. To each his own!
One of the problems, to be serious is that the daggerboards on many cats are not engineered very well. With a monohull you can have a swing keel that will swing up if you hit something. With a cat which as you say "goes like stink" imagine what happens when you hit something...... I have seen dagger boards sheared off at the hull but thats not the problem. I also saw an Aussie boat where the dagger board had sliced a lump out of the hull after grounding that you could drive a trollybus through with the poles up..... Also when sailing in big seas the boat cannot slide sideways down a wave like low aspect keels can which means the worse the sea conditions the more you have to raise the leeward dagger board to avoid tripping or pitchpoling. A necessary evil in a racing design therefore but not on a cruising boat I feel. But hey we are all different and if speed is more important than safety you would not have a boat like mine. To each his own!
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Smug git cat owner ...
Sorry if you took me seriously old cock, no offence meant. The argument that cruising cats with fixed low aspect ratio keels won't go to windward is often stated and totally wrong but I didn't mean to insult you. As far as you and para are concerned your preoccupation with the use of internal space and women seemed to indicate a certain priority of thought that seems to have left me in my old age. Just write me off as an irritable curmugionly old bastard. Frankly I would not be on this bloody forum at all if it was not pissing down outside. I should be antifouling.....
Sorry if you took me seriously old cock, no offence meant. The argument that cruising cats with fixed low aspect ratio keels won't go to windward is often stated and totally wrong but I didn't mean to insult you. As far as you and para are concerned your preoccupation with the use of internal space and women seemed to indicate a certain priority of thought that seems to have left me in my old age. Just write me off as an irritable curmugionly old bastard. Frankly I would not be on this bloody forum at all if it was not pissing down outside. I should be antifouling.....
mikewilkes
Well-Known Member
Richard Woods the designer and builder of cats somtimes posts - you could try a pm.
He has numerous ones with and without daggerboards.
He has numerous ones with and without daggerboards.
D
Deleted member 478
Guest
Thanks Mike. Do you know his exact username?
mikewilkes
Well-Known Member
I think its just richardwoods.
He was over in the far west when he last posted. The other thing you may try is his website. You can get to that from "multihullworld". The sale place of Pat Patersons down in Plynouth way.
He was over in the far west when he last posted. The other thing you may try is his website. You can get to that from "multihullworld". The sale place of Pat Patersons down in Plynouth way.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
on my previous boat, a tri with flat boards on the floats - 1/2m deep and 1.5m long, flat ply with rounded edges, i was able to beat off a lee shore in a F9. i used just a storm jib set on the normal forestay and she did about 6 knots. sure there was probably a fair bit of leeway, maybe up to 10 deg. but at no time was there any sense that we couldn't make ground to windward.
TonyMS
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We've hit rocks at speed with the daggerboards on our Dazcat 9.2. To my amazement, the hull and casing have not been damaged, though we've taken great chunks out of the boards.
One day I'll learn to lift in time, or maybe even not sail in too shallow water. However, after 30 years' navigating by braill, it may be too late!
One day I'll learn to lift in time, or maybe even not sail in too shallow water. However, after 30 years' navigating by braill, it may be too late!