Cut the Waffle, Who is to build her

[sailorman]

Boy George is backing UK science but is he backing UK ship building

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/£200m-polar-research-ship-planned

 

[Deleted member 36384]

He should have the boat built at a yard where the expense to the tax payer is minimised. Perhaps yards abroad that have ice breaking class design and build experience abroad offer a lower cost compared to a British yard. A low cost yard in Britain would be the best choice, but not at any price.

 

[maby]

I've always thought that the tax which would be paid as a result of building things in this country should be deducted from the headline price when awarding government contracts. If a foreign ship builder quotes £200m and a UK builder quotes £250m, but guarantees a total tax return of £51m between Corporation Tax and Income Tax paid by staff, then the UK company is the cheapest option.

 

[sailorman]

I've always thought that the tax which would be paid as a result of building things in this country should be deducted from the headline price when awarding government contracts. If a foreign ship builder quotes £200m and a UK builder quotes £250m, but guarantees a total tax return of £51m between Corporation Tax and Income Tax paid by staff, then the UK company is the cheapest option.

In 1 & retain the skills base

 

[Nicholas123]

Can't imagine the son's of Maggie doing that.

 

[sailorman]

Look how the Jap`s do it

http://gcaptain.com/japanese-prime-minister-revives-dying-shipyards-economic-stimulus/

 

[lustyd]

While a nice idea in theory, I suspect that overall the sums swing it in favour of leaving those people without jobs and getting factories elsewhere to do the actual build work of the boat. For us to do it would require tooling up to create these things.

On the other hand, it's quite likely that the electronic instruments will be UK designed, and probably manufactured too. Just because our manufacturing effort doesn't involve men with big hammers and welding kit doesn't mean we don't have a skilled manufacturing sector, it just means that we're working on the higher value manufacturing these days as well as the well paid design work behind those manufacturing processes. The projects may well be project managed by UK companies even where foreign manufacturing is used, and the science and research will be all UK, giving the country enormous benefits in the longer term.

I realise this post won't be very popular, but there is more to an economy than manufacturing these days, and looking rose tinted at the economy of the past doesn't help to fix current problems.

 

[Nicholas123]

While a nice idea in theory, I suspect that overall the sums swing it in favour of leaving those people without jobs and getting factories elsewhere to do the actual build work of the boat. For us to do it would require tooling up to create these things./QUOTE]

They said that about building the latest round of cruise liners now everyone does it except us.
It's the ideal project for Pompy directly opposite the new marine technology park they are investing millions in in Gosport......Except of course will it keep enough immigrants employed?

 

[maby]

While a nice idea in theory, I suspect that overall the sums swing it in favour of leaving those people without jobs and getting factories elsewhere to do the actual build work of the boat. For us to do it would require tooling up to create these things.

On the other hand, it's quite likely that the electronic instruments will be UK designed, and probably manufactured too. Just because our manufacturing effort doesn't involve men with big hammers and welding kit doesn't mean we don't have a skilled manufacturing sector, it just means that we're working on the higher value manufacturing these days as well as the well paid design work behind those manufacturing processes. The projects may well be project managed by UK companies even where foreign manufacturing is used, and the science and research will be all UK, giving the country enormous benefits in the longer term.

I realise this post won't be very popular, but there is more to an economy than manufacturing these days, and looking rose tinted at the economy of the past doesn't help to fix current problems.

All bidders should be allowed to deduct tax paid to the UK treasury from their headline price - if a far-east shipyard can demonstrate that the total cost to this country of buying from them will be less than the cost of buying from a UK yard, then they get the contract - but the total cost is not just the headline price, it's the headline price minus the total tax received from the builder and workforce.

 

[lustyd]

Except of course will it keep enough immigrants employed?

Without exception, all of the immigrants I know are employed and very hard working. I do, however, know a lot of British folk who could quite easily get a job if they really wanted one yet choose to moan about immigrants and lack of work instead. Or the jobs they find aren't "suited" to them, or the hours are too long, or the pay too low.

Building a cruise liner doesn't create as many jobs as you probably think anyway. The image of thousands of men moving tons of steel and hand riveting it together are long gone, and just like in car manufacture replaced mainly by robots. Often robots designed by the British in nice clean office environments which they prefer to dirty manufacture work.

 

[fireball]

The problem that many people seem to forget is that not everyone can be a design engineer or similar. Some people are just more suited to more manual tasks - that's not to belittle them - each job has it's own challenges and whilst a welder may not require the brain power of a robotic scientist, they make up for that in other qualities.
As a country we need to provide jobs to meaningfully occupy these people or face having to provide welfare.
It's a difficult balance, but I feel we do need to retain the skillsets to be an independent country even if we chose to source many of our goods from overseas.

 

[lustyd]

The problem that many people seem to forget is that not everyone can be a design engineer or similar. Some people are just more suited to more manual tasks - that's not to belittle them - each job has it's own challenges and whilst a welder may not require the brain power of a robotic scientist, they make up for that in other qualities.
As a country we need to provide jobs to meaningfully occupy these people or face having to provide welfare.
It's a difficult balance, but I feel we do need to retain the skillsets to be an independent country even if we chose to source many of our goods from overseas.

I'm not the one implying all they are capable of is welding, if you allow yourself the imagination to believe the welders could be retrained to do something else then you'd find them employed a darned site quicker. There are many jobs (my company has several vacancies right now) which don't need masses of skill but do need hard workers. Many of the new industries have roles which don't need scientists but do need people who can repeat a task accurately and patiently - the same skill set as welding.

 

[Nicholas123]

Without exception, all of the immigrants I know are employed and very hard working. I do, however, know a lot of British folk who could quite easily get a job if they really wanted one yet choose to moan about immigrants and lack of work instead. Or the jobs they find aren't "suited" to them, or the hours are too long, or the pay too low.

Building a cruise liner doesn't create as many jobs as you probably think anyway. The image of thousands of men moving tons of steel and hand riveting it together are long gone, and just like in car manufacture replaced mainly by robots. Often robots designed by the British in nice clean office environments which they prefer to dirty manufacture work.

What your really saying is I'm alright Jack in'it

 

[lustyd]

What your really saying is I'm alright Jack in'it

No, what I'm really saying is that there is work for those who want it. If you're after a job then the company where I work has 15 open vacancies, please send a CV, not all of them require lots of skills.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Wait until after the Scots referendum. If they vote to go, don't build it in a Scottish yard.