Current market, France, Italy and Spain?

[A_8]

€2-300K range, anyone have a view on where the market is going this year generally speaking, up, down or the same?

It looks like the UK picked up well last year which can be seen on prices now but how about around the med, prices seem slightly higher then previous years but most of the ones I have looked at have all been for sale since last year or even longer.

 

[alt]

Just something to note... when I was shopping approx 6 years ago, from pics alone, I could see that Med boats seemed to be neglected. THIS IS NOT A GENERALISATION... I know the Med forumites treat their boats like their babies. This is just an observation from boats I seen for sale (We're talking 40ft sports cruisers, which at the time were approx 10 years old).

If you're contacting brokers, make sure you get UP TO DATE pics and don't be afraid to tell them to go and take pics of specific areas. It's cheap to fly down and look at the boat, for me it was the time that I didn't have to be wasting.

As luck would have it (I'm in Ireland), found my dream boat 120 miles away in Dublin. Avoided the broker, called the owner (everyone knows everyone over here), viewed / trialed the boat without the owner present, agreed a price, paid off his bank (they had owner paperwork) and had her hauled on a truck. Yeah, bought a boat (Cranchi Smeraldo 37) without ever having to meet the owner... all done over the phone with mutual trust.... just how things should be done in a real and honest world. And to think I was about to go to Italy to buy a boat.... god the thought of red tape makes me sick.

 

[Portofino]

Based on you keeping it in the Med initially.

I would say post Brexit downward pressure because those countries govs ( Fr , Sp , IT ) will face pressure to raise taxes from there citizens, to make the shortfall in the EU money pot as a result of Brexit .All that “ Gillet Jaune “ stuff .

This means less disposable money in public circulation.

A no deal Brexit just accelerates this , a deal just delays the inevitable.

Either way -.........
Working on the assumption the majority of local boats are local owned , there’s enough locals compared to foreigners to flood the market , ie more for sale than normal and since there’s a strong link of supply and demand effecting achieved prices the local demand will evaporate simultaneously the supply increase .

If you are buying with a none € currency than that’s another whammy your buying power will increase as the € relatively tanks compared to N European currencies, like your Krone .

But the Germans will pressurise Denmark too to cough up more money after Brexit is concluded , your disposable income will shrink too , so any perceived affluence by Fx rates will be short lived for you .

It’s a small market so there will be a shift in the demographics towards N Europeans who will have more disposable cash to displace the locals .More from the week € .

Of course eventually a scenario my shake out in few years that N Europeans may be climbing over each other to sweep up what’s out there in the Med , in which case demand exceeding supply means the locals can ask and achieve higher prices .That assuming you Gov can resist German central bank pressure ?
The German Med boaters in Fr , Sp , and a few in IT may themselves ( € currency ) end up with diminishing disposable income , more tax , less productivity.Straws breaking a camels back for some German boaters .

The Med boat market moves , just buy when you are ready and start enjoying the boat .

If you are thinking about getting an older IPS boat or outdrive boat then you will be doing “your brains in “money wise anyhow , so any perceived future financial benefits from hesitating will evaporate with the repair bills making timing the entry nonsensical.

Sounds like you are going down the sensible straight shaft route ?

 

[Portofino]

Just something to note... when I was shopping approx 6 years ago, from pics alone, I could see that Med boats seemed to be neglected. THIS IS NOT A GENERALISATION... I know the Med forumites treat their boats like their babies. This is just an observation from boats I seen for sale (We're talking 40ft sports cruisers, which at the time were approx 10 years old).

If you're contacting brokers, make sure you get UP TO DATE pics and don't be afraid to tell them to go and take pics of specific areas. It's cheap to fly down and look at the boat, for me it was the time that I didn't have to be wasting.

As luck would have it (I'm in Ireland), found my dream boat 120 miles away in Dublin. Avoided the broker, called the owner (everyone knows everyone over here), viewed / trialed the boat without the owner present, agreed a price, paid off his bank (they had owner paperwork) and had her hauled on a truck. Yeah, bought a boat (Cranchi Smeraldo 37) without ever having to meet the owner... all done over the phone with mutual trust.... just how things should be done in a real and honest world. And to think I was about to go to Italy to buy a boat.... god the thought of red tape makes me sick.

I can,t figure out where you think the market in Fr , Sp and IT is going ?

 

[alt]

I can,t figure out where you think the market in Fr , Sp and IT is going ?

My apologies, I was referring to IT

 

[stuarth]

been searching a long while, can only speak for Fr. Nl, as someone said, the French boats generally speaking are tatty, boats in Nl, are moving fast, particularly the handsome one, have noticed in the 13 to 14m range, even in Nl. the boats tend not to have much nav aid , radar , plotters or auto pilots, but many are only used in what the Dutch call, Sweet waters and are well kept,
I steer well away from higher sp. engines, Volvo etc, installed a 310hp d5 in a boat, on a sticker on the rocker boxes was a notice, good for 10000 hrs, IMO a oft used diesel should make north 20000.
that engine and outdrive was 65000 nz 10 years back

 

[jrudge]

I don't really think that you can generalise. Talking about Brexit etc is speculation on an unknown event other than the exchange rate - and even that could vary wildly should we choose to delay or abandon.

My experience is well priced boats can appear anywhere, and until you get talking to the vendor / broker you don't really get a sense of where the real price may lie.

Italy in very general terms always seems a little cheaper, but the paperwork tends to be challenging / complex leasing and you pay broker commission as a buyer. Just my observation.

Some boats in less accessible parts or the wrong location ( A Feretti in Scotland) tend to be priced to sell.

I have decent relationships with a number of brokers in the UK and Mallorca. That tends to allow conversations re " its over priced what are they really looking for" or they call and say " xxx wants to unload boat yyy" which are less likely to get a straight answer it you don't know them.

Finally price and value are different things. If the same boat with the same hours has a £20k head line price increment over another - if it had just had new teak and interior linings and is in a place easy for you to view and collect it is better value than the cheaper one.

The single biggest variable to us on our little Island is likely the exchange rate which can go for or against you if you are buying or selling.

Re condition of boats I was once told by a broker that in Mallorca German boats are immaculate, English, Average and Spanish basket cases. Whilst a generalisation I have found it to be remarkably true. The German boats in particular I have looked at had all been 100% immaculate and beautifully presented with brokers who arrive early, remove covers, turn on AC etc that make it almost like a new boat experience - this is not a one off I have had it many many times.

The Spanish enjoy their boats. They often go past with people on every space having a great day out - so it depends I suppose if you see a boat as a floating apartment or a floating party base. I have to say the Spanish probably have the better outlook!

 

[Grubble]

I would say post Brexit downward pressure because those countries govs ( Fr , Sp , IT ) will face pressure to raise taxes from there citizens, to make the shortfall in the EU money pot as a result of Brexit .All that “ Gillet Jaune “ stuff .

This means less disposable money in public circulation.

I can see Brexit hitting growth in both the UK and the EU, but you can't seriously think that the loss of the UK's contribution is going to spark massive tax rises in Fr, Es, It to make up for it?

The EU budget represents less than 0.5% of GDP for each of those countries, so taxes aren't going to rocket to make up for the share that the UK no longer puts in.

More likely the EU will just have to reign in its future spending plans, in the same way the UK won't actually have any extra cash to spend, neither will the EU.

 

[petem]

Good post Jeremy. Like you, I have a good relationship with some brokers to the point where they'd recommend that I didn't view a boat as it was in poor / neglected condition and the wasn't considering this in the price he'd be willing to pay.

Incidentally, it's always struck me that Scandinavian boats are properly pampered particularly those that are hangered each winter, although the best kept Italian boats are kept the same way.

I'd also be willing to pay a premium for a boat that has had new coolers, turbos, fuel lines, injectors, etc and is in regular use. Likewise a boat that has had little use in recent years should be cheaper as you'll spend a few £1000's getting it A1 again.

 

[petem]

Re Brexit, less money floating around may mean people buying used rather than new. I really don't think it will make much difference.

 

[scubaman]

....
If you are buying with a none € currency than that’s another whammy your buying power will increase as the € relatively tanks compared to N European currencies, like your Krone .

But the Germans will pressurise Denmark too to cough up more money after Brexit is concluded , your disposable income will shrink too , so any perceived affluence by Fx rates will be short lived for you .
...

I think you'll find Gothenburg is actually in Sweden. The German pressure (or lack of) will probably be around the same, though...

 

[A_8]

Sounds like you are going down the sensible straight shaft route ?

Yes I am but the IPS boats are very tempting with difference in layout options they come with but I still remember the hassle and costs I had the last few years with outdrives so not planning to go there this time.

 

[Portofino]

Yes I am but the IPS boats are very tempting with difference in layout options they come with but I still remember the hassle and costs I had the last few years with outdrives so not planning to go there this time.

You don,t actually spend much conscious time in the bedroom of holiday accommodation.
With a liesure boat one could argue there are much better recreational spaces of greater importance than say your bedroom compared to your home home .Different set of values ?

More so if you have company on board .

A beds a bed at the end of the day ( no pun intended ) once your eyes are closed you won,t see extra wow factor space freed up by the pods making the cavernous owners midcabin .
You may regret the flatter stern sections leading to slamming , to accommodate the pods and the rear weight distribution in a chop or rough passage .Slowing down just prolonges the agony .

In fact technically one could argue it’s actually a huge waste of space , massive owners midcab at the cost of pods in a 40/50 ftr .

Guess it depends how you intend to use the boat in what sort of sea states ?

 

[Bouba]

My impression of the south of France, and truly this is not scientific just an impression, is that people don’t change boats as often. And their last boat they grow old with, and as the owner grows old they are not as able to devote the labour or money needed, and it gets used more as a floating caravan. So the time the boat gets to market it’s tatty.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re condition of boats I was once told by a broker that in Mallorca German boats are immaculate, English, Average and Spanish basket cases. Whilst a generalisation I have found it to be remarkably true. The German boats in particular I have looked at had all been 100% immaculate and beautifully presented with brokers who arrive early, remove covers, turn on AC etc that make it almost like a new boat experience - this is not a one off I have had it many many times.

Me too. I've looked at dozens of boats in N Europe and the Med over the years and my ears always prick up when the broker tells me a boat is German owned because almost without fail it has been looked after. My heart sinks when I hear that a boat is French or Spanish owned because it is usually the opposite. In my experience Italian and British owned boats can be very variable

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My impression of the south of France, and truly this is not scientific just an impression, is that people don’t change boats as often.

Thats because they have to spend so much cash keeping the boat in SoF and paying rip off prices for tradesmen and yard work that they can't save enough cash to be able to afford to change their boats!

 

[Portofino]

When you retire and have the time I would love to show you how to service your MAN engines and demonstrate how to achieve a v good Hull polish using a silver line polisher and a two part Dulon 2 polish .
Mind you I don’t take 2 hr lunch breaks and finish around 7/8 pm , it’s called DIY . I would expect a similar work a ethic , that’s lost on the Fr

 

[MapisM]

demonstrate how to achieve a v good Hull polish using a silver line polisher and a two part Dulon 2 polish.

I have an even better suggestion for that, and it doesn't take time, either: just get a white boat!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

When you retire and have the time I would love to show you how to service your MAN engines and demonstrate how to achieve a v good Hull polish using a silver line polisher and a two part Dulon 2 polish .
Mind you I don’t take 2 hr lunch breaks and finish around 7/8 pm , it’s called DIY . I would expect a similar work a ethic , that’s lost on the Fr

I dont do manual labour. Whats your hourly rate?

 

[MapisM]

I dont do manual labour

That inspires me yet another even better suggestion: don't do labour at all!
Sorry M, couldn't resist...