Cruiers International 224 and Penta 4.3l 205 engine

[Maf]

Hi, I'm looking for advice from anyone who knows anything about this combination of boat and engine, please.

I bought a Cruisers International 224 last year and soon afterwards discovered that there had been a large amount of water gotten into the engine oil - the oil looked like double cream. A couple of different mechanics looked at it, and it seemed like a new engine was needed. I agreed with one mechanic to fit a NEW engine, with manifolds and risers. He said the water had got into the engine through the risers - probably because new gaskets weren't fitted to the risers when the engine had previously beed replaced, 5 years earlier.

It took him 5 months to complete this. I was given every excuse in the book why it wasn't ready. Completely missed all of last year, eventually getting the boat back at the end of September and finding that he had put a reconditioned engine in instead of a new one, as quoted for and agreed. I took the boat out to sea for an hour or so, and when I checked the oil, it had gone milky again. The mechanic came and took the 2 cylinder heads away (about a month after I complained) and said it may be a (head/exhaust?) gasket. After much more chasing the heads were put back on in January and he changed the oil a couple of times. He said he found a couple of burrs on the exhaust manifold that had maybe caused the leak (??) I ran the engine for 10 minutes on the pontoon, without taking the boat to sea, and on checking the oil - it was milky again.

He now tells me "there is a problem with the water level in the exhaust whilst the boat is afloat and engine is not running, causing it to back fill with water and into the engine." He says it is a "problem boat".

Is this possible? Surely there must be 100's, if not more, Cruisers International 224s out there. He seems to be saying that the engine is somehow too low in the boat and water is coming in through the exhaust because of it. Surely it's the same as any other boat set up like this?

He's sent me this photo of the water level in the exhaust cow, when he was working on the boat afloat.

Any advice gratefully received.

 

[dpb]

These were nice little boats. We came close to buying one a couple of times.
Since the boats were originally fitted with outdrive set ups there should not be a problem with this per se. though I think some boats have extra riser sections placed between the manifold and the elbow to keep the elbow high enough above the water line.
Of course if the water was backfilling into the engine, it would keep on doing it till the boat sank I think.
The one time I had this same problem it was caused by a cracked engine block....do you know for sure that the block was replaced?
A faulty oil cooler, if your engine has one, could also be the problem maybe.

 

[Seastoke]

we had one in the nineties for 4 years loved the boat ,we trailed at first then had a berth on the dart after one season we to had water in the engine ,it was suggested it came in from the exhaust,but we had engine repaired and sold it so never really knew .

 

[Kawasaki]

First thing to do is bin ‘The Mechanic’
Where about are you?

 

[Maf]

Thanks for the replies.

I definitely think it's time to bin the mechanic, Kawasaki, the trouble is I'm £6K+ out of pocket to him. I'm looking to take legal action to recover my money for a job very badly done but want to make sure I have as much info first - hence asking here. I'm in Leigh-on-Sea in Essex.

seastoke - It is on a drying mooring. I'll check out if I can find more info on whether that may be a problem.

dpd - I can't be certain the block has been changed. It's all been painted black but apart from that there are no identifying marks on it except the block casting numbers - which are identical to the 'original' engine. The is no engine number plate to identify the engine (I don't know if boat engines have these?). After I got it back the first time and saw on the invoice 'reconditioned engine' I asked the bloke to see the invoice - originally I had found a company in Falmouth that supplied brand new blocks from the States for £3650 +VAT and he said he could get a 'new engine' for £3650 including the VAT - I assumed he must get some trade discount. Anyway, he wouldn't show me the invoice (said "it doesn't work like that") and said a new engine would have cost twice as much and agreed to reduce the bill by £800 as a goodwill gesture or something. Other than seeing an invoice, I have no other way of knowing if I have got exactly the same engine back (painted black).

 

[QBhoy]

Ok.
So. I’m familiar with this boat..but it had a diesel VP
I’m also very very familiar with this engine. I had one identical in a sealine 218 for 10 years. Great engines if maintained properly.
The boat is great and so is the engine. This aq205 or 431 is the usual engine found in this model.

You need to get rid of that mechanic. The water level in the “cow horns” pictured is totally normal. Although the VP don’t have the exhaust shutters found in similar mercruiser 4.3s..they have or should have the flapper on the drive exhaust outlet (normally a 290dp) on this model. This stops any real volume of water backing up the exhaust. An unlikely event when the engine is running anyway.

To progress, water in the oil on these can only come from a few places. These are listed below In order of assumed likely hood

The exhaust manifolds and risers rotting through or freezing, then allowing water ingress through the heads. Often a tell tale is poor idle or hard or non starting after a run.

Head gasket or warped head from overheating. Quite unlikely.

Tiny chance of at all of water in through the lip seal of the engine driven water pump. Perhaps. Never heard of it, but not impossible.

Question I’d ask is what parts were re used when the new engine was put in. Strongly suspecting the former of the above is relevant perhaps.

 

[QBhoy]

Just saw that you said it was painted black when re engined. This is suggesting that you now have a mercruiser based engine. Or a hybrid. Not an uncommon solution but a few possible differences. Most 4.3 mercruiser engines are mated to an alpha drive which has the water pump in the drive. Not the engine. Check the fitting and set up of your adapter and assumed engine driven pump, that I’m assuming you have because of the assumed 290dp drive and it’s need for such.

Also thinking about the quality of this mechanic. There is a chance that if it’s a more modern 4.3 unit and had parts from a donor used engine or engines from unknown ages.....the newer engines were vortec heads. Yours wouldn’t have been originally. Would like to assume he wouldn’t use the same gaskets but not sure.
Interested to see how you get on...but check those risers and manifolds. If you are unsure it’s an hour or so to get them off and send them to a trusted place for a pressure test. Quite likely you will be able to tell by a glance at their innards though.

Hate to perhaps make you feel worse, but if it was these that caused the water ingress in the first place and the only symptoms were water in the oil...and didn’t have any serious mechanical damage...the bullit proof 4.3 GM is no stranger to dealing with a bit of water in the oil. Just needs a flush out and a few oil changes to put it right again. They are strong. Perhaps yours had a more serious failure after a more prelonged period of time and water ingress. Usually it’s not a problem if caught in time. That’s how strong these things are.
Cheers.

 

[spannerman]

If its a Volvo then the raw water pump is usually on the front of the crank pulley and if any water gets past the seals it falls into the bilge, its impossible for it to contaminate the oil. If you suspect risers,manifolds, or gaskets then you WILL have water in a cylinder/s easily checked by removing the spark olugs and see which one is wet/rusty. The other place it can leak is between the head and block, if the engine is old they can rust around the cooling channels where they meet the head gasket, this then means there isn’t the clamping effect on the gasket allowing water to leak. The worst scenario is if there is a crack somewhere due to freezing. All engines have a data plate with the serial number, GM V6/8 is on the right at the rear above the starter motor. I don’t know if your engine is a genuine recon or just been resprayed to look new, its a common trick with unscrupulous workshops. But your mechanic shouldn’t be allowed near anything more complex than a lawnmower! Don’t pay anything until you have this sorted, if it turns out you do have a recon engine which now has the same fault it points to the exhaust system, he has then transferred the problem to the next engine and should rectify it in a specified time frame or you take it to another workshop and he foots the bill. The back filling is rubbish as it would have happened right from new when the boat was first put on the water and your pic shows the water level which is totally normal and when the engine is running its even lower due to exhaust pressure so the water ingress has to be up in the engine itself.

 

[QBhoy]

Literally almost word for word...haha.

 

[Restoration man]

Did the engine fitter supply a new inlet manifold? If not yoy could have a crack under the thermostat this would let oil into the lifter valley and this would contaminate the oil very quickly, I’ve never had a 4.3 but I’ve rebuilt a few 5.7 and in sure there very similar in design?
Nick

 

[Maf]

Thanks for all your further help - it's taking me a while to digest it all.

Spannerman - I went to remove the spark plugs and check for rust (the 'mechanic' had asked me to do this too, after he first fitted the recon engine and it still let in water he removed the heads and said all the plugs on the port side were rusty- after 30 mins at sea). The top of the plugs are so close to the exhaust manifold - about 5-10mm - that there's absolutely no chance of getting a plug socket over the top. I can't see how I'd get them out without removing the exhaust manifold - which doesn't seem right.

 

[QBhoy]

Hi
You can defo get a plug socket in there. It’s a fiddle for sure, but possible.
There is a knack to it that you will remember every time after.

 

[spannerman]

If you grind a bit off the outside of the plug soket so its slimmer it will fit. I have one I made for Volvo engines where the manifold is very close.