Crime levels in the Caribbean?

[LadyJessie]

This is a question for all you forum members in the Caribbean:

I plan to make the Atlantic crossing from the Med this coming winter and to spend next year in the Carib. However, I have been hearing a lot of horrible stories from fellow yotties of the increased level of crimes in the Carib. They tell me that especially St Lucia, Grenada and Trinidad has seen a very significant increase in robberies and much worse crimes since I was there ten years ago. Having not even bothered to lock my boat most of the time in the last five years in the Med, that is disturbing news.

Is there a basis for these stories? Has the security deteriorated? I would love to know from you out there.

 

[Bajansailor]

I would be much happier living on a boat in the Caribbean rather than say a house in London - I am sure that the possibility of encountering crime in London must be much greater.

The crime rate against yotties in Trinidad has gone up, but the number of yachts visiting Trinidad in recent years for re-fits, repairs or storage ashore has increased considerably, and this might be a contributing factor.
St Lucia has 200 ARC yachts all arriving at once in early December, and no doubt there are some unsavoury characters there who are just lying in wait, rubbing their paws in glee....
Grenada is a lovely wee island, but there is always a small possibility that something might happen, same as in any other island. Very often the crimes are commited by impoverished yotties, eg re stealing dinghies and yacht equipment.

The thing to do is be sensible and careful, same as you would in any other anchorage, port or town.

As far as I know there have been very few reported incidents here in Barbados of crimes agains yachtspersons, so I hope that will encourage you to consider making Barbados your first port of call in the New World. However if you decide to 'do the ARC', I guess you will just pass us by.....

 

[steve_cronin]

Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

Four hooded monk-like figures each bearing a long candle moved slowly in procession, chanting solemny up the aisle towards the high altar.

Half way up they turned, threw away their cassocks to reveal black shirted uniforms and proceeded to spray the congregation in petrol which they then set alight. They then proceeded to open up with small automatic weapons.

Four killed and seven with severe burns that required medivac to the US and many dozens of other serious injuries. Of those evacuated, three needed amputations.

Now they don't put that in the tourist brochures but it was told to me the following January by a lady who was there that night. She was a waitress in our hotel. It was confirmed by a family member a few years later. I did wonder why the (armed) security men were so keen on tailing us on a moonlight walk along the beach one night.

Steve Cronin

 

[Pincoya]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

Steve,

You should be ashamed of yourself. Scaremongering on this scale is indefensible. Please provide some authoritative proof of your third hand (I'm being generous) account.

I will be the first to publicly apologise if you can and if you cannot my earlier comments apply.

I was a senior police officer in UK before retiring and beginning my sailing adventures. My experience, so far, is that the fear of crime is greater than the actual risk and that there are a good many people willing to pass on silly stories designed prevent those of us who have the nerve to undertake our dreams from doing so.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now and am baking humble pie, just in case.

Paul

 

[Bejasus]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

whilst I agree, that this was posted in Steve's typical manner, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
it was actually an almost factually correct account, of what happened on New Years Eve, 2000.

see HERE

 

[steve_cronin]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

How dare you call me a liar you silly stupid ex-plod

apologise at once.

That IS what happened and anyone travelling to St Lucia has a right to know that. Barbados was experiencing attrocities of an equivalent nature at the same time.

FACTS Sir, FACTS!

Steve cronin

 

[steve_cronin]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

Yes, sorry, it was New Year not Christmas

Steve Cronin

 

[steve_cronin]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

[ QUOTE ]
whilst I agree, that this was posted in Steve's typical manner, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You mean "Factually"?

Steve Cronin

 

[Bejasus]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

actually Steve, you didn't mention when the incident took place, and it read like it was a lot more recent than 7 years ago. Ie. could have been construed as last New Year.

mind you, a 10 second Google soon sorted it out. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Troutbridge]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

Stand by for everybody now to dredge up every crime that's ever been committed in the Caribbean. My God, look at the mayhem that Henry Morgan et al created! Better not go there.
I don't suppose crime rates have varied much over the years, probably depends on whether or not the island you're visiting has just been devastated by a passing hurricane or not. I think the usual rules apply....if you walk down the road looking like a million dollars then somebody will probably try to help themselves to some. Incidentally, I wouldn't visit the UK, there have been several gun massacres recently (well, during the last twenty years anyway, good taste prevents me from doing a precis of the Hungerford massacre).
Go to the Caribbean, take sensible precautions and have a good time. There is a train of thought that says thieves breaking into a boat cause more damage if it's locked, so leaving it unlocked actually lessens the pain. Maybe something in that, unless you can really secure the boat, but most boat locks I've seen are pretty insubstantial.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

[ QUOTE ]
Stand by for everybody now to dredge up every crime that's ever been committed in the Caribbean.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, no actually. To restore balance one would quote the Madrid train bombings, the London underground bombs, 9/11, school mass shootings in the USA, the Omagh bomb in Northern Ireland.

The point is that these one off events, although they create enormous impact at the time, are not representative of the general levels of petty theft and crime, so Steve's sin was the sin of a tabloid journalist - trying to prove a generality by quoting a single sensational event. Not helpful.

To the point. I've recently returned from Grenada, and know Spain fairly well. A good measure of the degree of petty crime in a town is to look at the security measures used by retailers, and see what level they're applied.

Barcelona is interesting. Shops security tag bottles of drink worth only €3-4. Almost all clothes in 'open' shops are tagged. Many shops have a double door entry system. The police office usually has five staff working full time on filling in police reports of petty theft (bag snatches etc) and the waiting room sees some 30 to 50 victims present at any one time (out of season!). There's obviously a serious petty theft problem there.

St Georges, Grenada, has steel shutters outside all stores, barred windows, and that's about it. And outside St Georges, there's little evidence of security. Some people feel threatened walking around market areas or beaches because of the touting - I personally just put that down to the 'foreigness' of the place - but that feeling of threat does matter to a visitor, even if it's not supported in reality.

St Lucia and St Vincent do have a serious poverty problem among sections of the population, and this shows in the way that the tourist 'resorts' are isolated from the population and guarded. Yotties are pestered by boat boys offering tentative services - 'make sure you dinghy is safe while you shop - there are lots of naughty boys round here' stuff. Not too dis-similar to the activities of some marineros in Italy, but ubiquitous.

The rest of the small Caribbean islands I've visited have shown little obvious signs of a security threat. Haiti, Jamaica, Domenica, Trinidad I don't know. I've chosen not to visit them due to the gaurded warning given on the foreign office web sites.

Theft from boats? I have no evidence. I'm lucky, I've never suffered from it. nor have I met anyone who has had a theft, though I've heard lots of rumours. The most preposterous rumour is the permanent slight inflicted on the residents of Parga - ever sine 1984 - that there's a petty theft problem in Valtou bay. I cannot believe that that tiny Greek harbour has suffered from continuous petty theft problems for 23 years, while no others have reported problems. Certainly, the local police are not aware . . .

Nothing like a carefuly placed rumour to screw your competitors . . .

 

[ChrisE]

I'd agree about Trinidad, in the past couple of years there have recently been several authenticated attacks on yotties at anchor. When we were there 10 years ago, we were advised by the locals to keep out of certain areas and not to display any obvious signs of wealth.

That said Trinidad is the only place where we felt anything other than pefectly safe. We chained our way up all of the islands and other than over persistent boat boys had no probs.

 

[KellysEye]

If you want the facts take a look at http://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/ it lists most crimes by island and by time period.

Bear in mind that most victims have not locked their boats when away from it, have not lifted their dinghy at night, have not locked their dinghy to the dock, have walked through slums at night, have anchored alone in known crime hotspots etc etc etc. Then they start whinging and rumours fly around.

 

[Bajansailor]

Re: Crime in the Caribbean

"Barbados was experiencing attrocities of an equivalent nature at the same time".

Steve, I am trying hard to remember 'similar atrocities' like massacres and such happening here around Christmas 2000, but I cannot recall any.... I think there was an armed robbery about that time in a hotel where the victim got shot, but that was about it (?).

If I drive into Bridgetown I never lock my car (it is 13 years old, and no one would want to steal it) unless I do have to leave something very valuable in it (not often!). Our boat used to live on a mooring in Carlisle Bay by Bridgetown, and she was broken into once in the year she was there, by (I think) a drug addict looking for ??? (he didnt steal anything).
For the past 8 years she has been on a mooring off Port St Charles at the north end of the island, and nothing untoward has happened there, and I have not heard any negative reports from any visiting yachts anchored there in recent years.

Might I humbly suggest that visiting yachties who zoom about in anchorages in expensive RHIBs, who treat local people with disdain (some do, they are the minority though), who try to bargain down a fruit seller selling fruit at a reasonable price, these folk might upset some of the local population.
Might I also suggest that one be aware of those yachties who are living on a shoe string (ok, scrounging basically) - they often have 'little' rusty home made steel boats, and although this is a generalisation, there have been various instances where these impoverished yotties have been stealing outboards, equipment, etc off other yachts, and then departing that night.

If you are sailing to the Caribbean, get youself a good pulling dinghy (perhaps in addition to the RHIB) and use it occasionally - apart from rowing being good exercise, I find that rowing a dinghy is an excellent way of breaking down barriers between other yachts and local folk - you will invariably be greeted with a cheery wave when rowing, rather than a 1 fingered gesture as you zoom by in the RHIB on the 200m passage to the beach at speed.

Remember that average wages here are very low - Barbados has higher wages than all of the other islands, yet there are still many folk here who have to work for less than GBP 1.50 an hour - and food costs in the islands are generally on par with the UK, apart from locally grown produce and fish.

And finally, please dont act or look like a tourist on holiday - the tourists off the cruise liners here always stand out cos they invariably appear to be so scruffy in their loud Hawaiian shirts (or no shirts at all)..... dress conservatively (dont wear swim suits in town), treat people politely (but firmly if they are hasselling you to buy something), observe local customs and rules, have a drink in a 'local' rum shop occasionally instead of a 'tourist' bar - the beer is the same, the only difference is that it might be twice the price in the tourist bar...
start a discussion about cricket while in that rum shop, and buy a round for those you have engaged in conversation (it wont break you, a bottle of beer might be about 70p, and rum (you buy it by the bottle...) is a fraction of the cost in English pubs), and you will get on famously!!

 

[mandlmaunder]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

I think the original Q is in reguard of crime against yotties.
There are crimes but if you take reasonable precautions as you would anywhere, your chances are low of actually being involved.
When you park your car do you lock it?
As horrific as that attack was it isn't strickly boat related,but yet another incidence of just how nasty some humans can be to other humans.
I have a large Stainless steel plate that locks over my doors on our cat, I have seen people who have had their wash brds replace when at anchor or in marinas with S/S grates that drop in , very secure and plenty of airflow.
Sorry no pictures but a little imagination should do the trick.
If some sticky fingered little git is intent on stealing they will, just try to make them go somewhere less well protected.

We have been the victims of crime , our boat was broken into in Trini 2 years ago whilst on the hard in Peaks yard (left the boat for 6 months ,was working as a charter skipper), reported this to both the marina ,YSAT and the police. Nothing was done by any of the conserned authorities, but no physical harm to boat or people.
Read your local paper if you want to know about crime.
Dont let the thought of crime stop you, if that was the case you would have to lock yourself in your home and stay there.

 

[Foxy]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

Spent the last season in the Caribbean having great time. No crime againts us and treated so much better by locals than we would have been back in uk. Treat as you would want to be treated. Tourism is very important to many islanders and they will go out of their way to make sure you stay safe. Dont think about it,just get out there!

 

[jeremyshaw]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

There's no doubt in my view that the Caribbean is less safe than the Med. I never locked my dinghy in the Med - I often do in the Caribbean. I always lock the boat up at night.

However, that does not make it unsafe. I feel as safe/unsafe in London as in the Caribbean. Basically there is more poverty there, so you will have to be a bit more careful than you are used to in the Med. But if you take sensible precautions and adapt to local conditions you have a very low likelihood of being a victim of crime.

 

[Pincoya]

Re: Castries Cathedral, just before Christmas 2000

Steve,


My humble pie is still intact and I have pasted an extract from The BBC below, which includes eye witness accounts from members of the clergy. I doubt that they are not telling the truth.

Their account does not mention the hooded figures processing etc etc that your dramatisation mentions. It clearly indicates that these were sick individuals and I now know that at least two were arrested immediately after the attack outside the church.

None of the information available is pertinent to cruisers and does nothing to enhance or diminish the safety of The Caribbean. It is, of course six years out of date in any event.

Finally, your childish name calling response inclines me to disregard any information you may volunteer in future. Many of us use this site for informed comment and rational judgement, especially those of us out here thousands of miles from home. I'm afraid that your postings, based on this thread, do not meet the standard.

Paul

From the BBC

'The suspects identified themselves as Rastafarians and are reported to have said that God asked them to carry out the attack because "there is so much corruption in the Catholic Church".

Witnesses said a group of three or four men entered the church on Sunday as worshippers were lining up to receive Holy Communion.

Sister Theresa Egan was administering the holy sacrament when she was killed

"There was pandemonium when a group of men burst into the church with what looked like a wall of fire," said Sister Mel Kenny, from Clonmacnoise, Co Offaly.

"They were spraying people with kerosene, and then torching them."

The nun who died, 72-year-old Sister Theresa Egan, originally from Co Laois, was serving communion and was hit in the head by one of the machetes.

People gathered in front of the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conceptionm after the attack

"I saw the priest who had been saying mass come out of the church with his vestments alight," Sister Mel told Irish Radio.

"I saw Sister Theresa fall to the ground and I wanted to help her. But I then felt a terrible force on the side of my head and also fell and could not move.

"It was Satanic, and a totally new departure. People here are very angry."

Reports say the two suspects told police they were prophets sent by Haile Selassie, the late Ethiopian emperor worshipped as a god by Rastafarians.'

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
I always lock the boat up at night.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that is necessary, that is exactly what would make me feel very uncomfortable in the Carib; in two aspects: isn't it extremely uncomfortable in a warm climate to have to close hatches and lock the companionway every night? How do you sleep? Secondly, just the thought that it is necessary to lock yourself in would make me feel very uncomfortable. Yes, I understand the comparison with London; you lock yourself in there. But the whole idea of cruising is to get away from the big city problems. I don't want to have those problems in a nice anchorage.

 

[KellysEye]

>extremely uncomfortable in a warm climate to have to close hatches and lock the companionway every night? How do you sleep?

We have a fan.

>Secondly, just the thought that it is necessary to lock yourself in would make me feel very uncomfortable.

In that case the Caribbean is not for you. Nor is probably ninety per cent of the world. Our view on crime is behave responsibly (as others have said) and enjoy. If you don't change your atttitude you will miss much more than you gain by staying somewhere 'safe' (it only takes one nutter).