duff
New member
Anyone have a definitive list of which yacht manufacturers have ceased operating? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
credit crunch
- Thread starter duff
- Start date
Taffy
New member
How long back do you want to go ro shall we just start with Noah ?
Ceejay
Active member
Harmony are only building to order and trying to sell off existing stock.
CJ
CJ
duff
New member
did they have a credit crunch at the time of the ark?
Cerddinen
New member
Of course. At the time of the Great Flood all the lenders went under.
Pete7
Well-known member
Yes, property prices sank /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
StugeronSteve
New member
Nobody had even considered a bail out.
Thistle
Well-known member
When you provide the definitive list of boatbuilders, I'm sure the forum will be able to come up with the definitive sub-list of those who are no longer boatbuilders.
Cerddinen
New member
The difficulty with a definitive list is that many small boat-builders undertake range of different work. They will build boats if orders are received but do other work - repairs, non-boating fabrication etc. - if they are not. This makes classification difficult if not impossible since you would need to judge whether an inactive boat-builder is or is not a boat-builder.
duff
New member
Apart from the obvious liquidity crisis at the time of Noah,I was referring to the present climate.Rumours abound re Sweden Yachts,Elan,Etap,Hallberg Rassy,Najad,Maxi,Dufour etc.Most companies require at least a 30%deposit before taking an order and it would be nice to know the likelihood of either getting a yacht or ones money back!
Cerddinen
New member
Humour aside, one component of an answer to this question is to look at the share price of the builder -where there is a publicly quoted price. If you did that now you would find that Beneteau/Jeanneau have suffered recent falls but still look strong. Hanse look very weak with a share price that is 1/10 of its peak. Markets are sometimes wrong, but there is an army of professionals behind the share prices who are as keen as you might be not to make a wrong call.
Thistle
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
The difficulty with a definitive list is that many small boat-builders undertake range of different work. They will build boats if orders are received but do other work - repairs, non-boating fabrication etc. - if they are not. This makes classification difficult if not impossible since you would need to judge whether an inactive boat-builder is or is not a boat-builder.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Quite. My point exactly. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
When the OP finds the task of providing a complete list impossible, he may appreciate the lack of answers from here. OTOH if he provides <u>his</u> list, however incomplete that may be, I'm confident we can provide yes / no / maybe indications of whether they are still building boats.
The difficulty with a definitive list is that many small boat-builders undertake range of different work. They will build boats if orders are received but do other work - repairs, non-boating fabrication etc. - if they are not. This makes classification difficult if not impossible since you would need to judge whether an inactive boat-builder is or is not a boat-builder.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Quite. My point exactly. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
When the OP finds the task of providing a complete list impossible, he may appreciate the lack of answers from here. OTOH if he provides <u>his</u> list, however incomplete that may be, I'm confident we can provide yes / no / maybe indications of whether they are still building boats.
Boat44
New member
30% deposit?? Thats a bit rich, especialy in todays market.
You wouldn't give a builder 30% deposit to build you a house, similalry you wouldn't give a car dealer 30% deposit for a car.
I would go for small deposit help by a solicitor, or on a credit card, possibly with the intention of further small payments during the build (if they kick up in the first place about a small desposit) of the boat provided the contract enusres you have legal title to what is bought and manufactured for your new toy!
I would never hand over a deposit to a broker. If they wnat a sale, they will find a way to ensure you are happy, ie not at risk of loosing your money if they go broke.
Did you see the artcile about ford and vauxhall increasing prices by 5%. Seems like warpped logic to me.
You wouldn't give a builder 30% deposit to build you a house, similalry you wouldn't give a car dealer 30% deposit for a car.
I would go for small deposit help by a solicitor, or on a credit card, possibly with the intention of further small payments during the build (if they kick up in the first place about a small desposit) of the boat provided the contract enusres you have legal title to what is bought and manufactured for your new toy!
I would never hand over a deposit to a broker. If they wnat a sale, they will find a way to ensure you are happy, ie not at risk of loosing your money if they go broke.
Did you see the artcile about ford and vauxhall increasing prices by 5%. Seems like warpped logic to me.
Tranona
Well-known member
They are not rumours in the case of Sweden Yachts and Etap. Both are in administration. All you can do is to research the builder you want to buy from but it is difficult because many are private companies. HR at least offer a bank guarantee to cover deposits and stage payments. The free availability of this is an indicator of financial strength.
The biggest danger in recent times has been paying through an intermediary rather than having a contract with the builder, although if the builder is financially weak that can also be a problem. Not so much with misappropriation but with your boat being in an unfinished or unfinishable state when the axe falls. You can end up owning a collection of bits with little market value.
The biggest danger in recent times has been paying through an intermediary rather than having a contract with the builder, although if the builder is financially weak that can also be a problem. Not so much with misappropriation but with your boat being in an unfinished or unfinishable state when the axe falls. You can end up owning a collection of bits with little market value.
SirSnoozalot
New member
Try Escrow. Bond the cash with a third party Solicitor or similar. There was a feature about it in the latest edition of a magazine I picked up at the Boat Show. Can't remember what it was called. If I can find it I will post it.
Tranona
Well-known member
Escrow accounts can be useful if both parties agree to their use. A dealer will ask for a deposit to support your willingness to buy the boat which he has committed to buy from the builder. If the deposit is held in a ringfenced client account it should be secure. However, if as in the case of Peters some deposits were not paid into the client account they can be lost. Equally if the client account is "raided" the money can still be lost, but at least you have a claim over it.
It is different if you are dealing direct with the builder because your deposit and stage payments are being used to finance your boat and you gain title to what you have paid for. Using an Escrow account is a good way of formalising the transfer of money. However, it still does not remove the risk that the builder goes bust and you are left with owning a part complete boat. It may not be either physically possible or financially viable to actually complete the boat.
It is different if you are dealing direct with the builder because your deposit and stage payments are being used to finance your boat and you gain title to what you have paid for. Using an Escrow account is a good way of formalising the transfer of money. However, it still does not remove the risk that the builder goes bust and you are left with owning a part complete boat. It may not be either physically possible or financially viable to actually complete the boat.
Sailfree
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Try Escrow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Escrow misses the point.
Most builders cannot afford the work in progress and need the funds to finance the completion. They only want to fund a small proportion of outstanding work for a very limited period of time.
The answer will be in an insurance bond for which the cost will need to be added to the cost of construction.
Try Escrow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Escrow misses the point.
Most builders cannot afford the work in progress and need the funds to finance the completion. They only want to fund a small proportion of outstanding work for a very limited period of time.
The answer will be in an insurance bond for which the cost will need to be added to the cost of construction.
Tranona
Well-known member
Do you have any suggestions of an insurance company who would take on such a risk? An Escrow account which pays the money when conditions are met - ie stage payments, secures ownership according to the contract, but insuring against non completion of the total contract is a very different matter.
Sailfree
Well-known member
To date I have always covered deposits by credit card and probably mistakenly thought my final payment was safe with title to the boat leaving the factory.
Regarding deposits I am sure a series of credit cards is the only way to go (currently getting a refund for Speedferries demise).
Regarding final payment I am now more dubious as if UK dealer went bust before passing on the payment I think you might have difficulty but at least the risk period is very short.
At present even if I could afford a new boat I would not buy one unless I received absolute financial guarantee in the form of a bank bond against delivery of final product. I would think this would be possible but cost 1-2%.
Bonds are often used in construction contracts where the risk is probably higher.
Regarding deposits I am sure a series of credit cards is the only way to go (currently getting a refund for Speedferries demise).
Regarding final payment I am now more dubious as if UK dealer went bust before passing on the payment I think you might have difficulty but at least the risk period is very short.
At present even if I could afford a new boat I would not buy one unless I received absolute financial guarantee in the form of a bank bond against delivery of final product. I would think this would be possible but cost 1-2%.
Bonds are often used in construction contracts where the risk is probably higher.
exfinnsailor
New member
From the previous posts it would seem prudent in todays financal climate to buy something that actually exists .. A sails man will give you all sorts of reasons to buy from his yard and drawings .. But a boat takes time to build and who knows if the builder will be there in 6 months time .. The boat off the shelf may not be exactly what you had in mind but it can always be improved .. Having read some of the horror stories on the forum I think I would find one that I can touch .. Suppose its going to get to a point where we have solicitors involved as the value of some boats is well ........
