Could I keep a Princess 32 on London canals?

[boyonaboat]

Hello people,

I am new to boating so I will likely ask some stupid questions, I am just very excited to buy my first boat and I would love to hear any feedback you can give!

I'm hoping to buy a Princess 32 to live in, along the inland waterways in London.. particularly, the Regents Canal, the River Lea and the Grand Union Canal.
The plan is to convert the wheel house roof and windscreens so that I can lower / remove them when needed to clear low bridges.
Does anyone have any advice on how this might best be achieved and what costs I might be looking at? Could it be D.I.Y'ed by someone with basic carpentry skills?

My second biggest concern of keeping a Princess 32 on canals, is the twin engines. I am looking at a couple potential boats, both have twin diesel Perkins. one has 4107s, the other has 4108s..
Do you think twin engines will be too much power for the canal's 4mph (approx) speed limits? Could we alternatively run it on an auxiliary outboard when we're cruising on the canals?

Lastly, can anyone think of any other reason why a Princess 32 might not be suited to canal life? or might it just maybe all work out?


Thanks in advance for any support, much appreciated!!!

 

[PlanB]

You need to look at the draft (3ft IIRC) vs the depth of the canals you want to use. This could be a serious issue, as some canals are not much deeper than that. You have already spotted the air draft problem and I would strongly recommend that you research bridge heights in your hoped-for cruising area, then work out whether the design of the boat makes it possible to reduce the height appropriately..
You are not going to be doing the engines any good going at 4pm long term. Some people use them alternately, but it's not ideal. I've not come across anyone using an aux outboard.
As regards living aboard. check the rules for black and grey waste and whether your chosen boat could comply.

 

[Billy no mates.]

Hello people,

I am new to boating so I will likely ask some stupid questions, I am just very excited to buy my first boat and I would love to hear any feedback you can give!

I'm hoping to buy a Princess 32 to live in, along the inland waterways in London.. particularly, the Regents Canal, the River Lea and the Grand Union Canal.
The plan is to convert the wheel house roof and windscreens so that I can lower / remove them when needed to clear low bridges.
Does anyone have any advice on how this might best be achieved and what costs I might be looking at? Could it be D.I.Y'ed by someone with basic carpentry skills?

My second biggest concern of keeping a Princess 32 on canals, is the twin engines. I am looking at a couple potential boats, both have twin diesel Perkins. one has 4107s, the other has 4108s..
Do you think twin engines will be too much power for the canal's 4mph (approx) speed limits? Could we alternatively run it on an auxiliary outboard when we're cruising on the canals?

Lastly, can anyone think of any other reason why a Princess 32 might not be suited to canal life? or might it just maybe all work out?


Thanks in advance for any support, much appreciated!!!

Does this boat have outdrives or shafts, if shafts you will be in the water every time a prop fouls which on London canals will be often. More suited to the Thames or deeper rivers. Canal boats have a weedhatch to clear the prop, i cant imagine it being much fun getting in the water in December.

 

[ryanroberts]

Air draft will restrict you heavily, even with a collapsable wheelhouse and CRT will not like it if you can't meet the minimum cruising distances. You need to be < 7' for the Lea. They enforce the rules quite strictly for new boaters anywhere near London, particularly anything that looks unsuitable for canal navigation. You would have to take jaunts up the Thames and onto CRT waters again, not sure you can make it up the Lea. You will also scratch the hell out of it. You will be running massively overpowered engines at low revs and glassing them up, or possibly having to run a genset if you are not using them to charge your batteries as you travel.. Get a steel narrowboat, they are built for the job.

 

[boyonaboat]

Thanks you all so much for all the advice, I'm overwhelmed by the response!

According to the CRT waterway dimensions, the maximum water draft I could have to navigate the entirety of the River Lea, the Grand Union and the Regents canal is 3'4", which I would need in order to clear the shallowest stretch of the grand Union, between Bulls Bridge and Rickmansworth.
The draft of the Princess 32 I want to buy is 2'9" so that shouldn't be a problem for me as far as I can tell.. please correct me if I'm wrong..

According to the same document, with a 7'6" air draft, I should be able to navigate the entirety of the regents canal, plus the river lea (up to ponders end) and the grand Union (up to Long Buckby).. this would give me over 100 miles to navigate along CRT waterways.. and I would only be required to travel 20 miles a year to meet the CRT rules, as far as I know..

The current air draft is 8'8", so I would need to reduce the height of the boat by at least 1'2" to clear all the bridges.. am I correct in thinking this? Judging on some of the boats I've seen that have had the wheelhouse conversion, I think it is quite likely that I will be able to reduce the height by that amount but I will certainly investigate further into wether or not this can be done.

As Ryan mentioned, I would need to cruise along the Thames in between journeys to access the different canals, however that shouldn't be too much work for the princess 32, should it?

Could anyone please explain to me why the condition of the twin engines would decrease if I were to cruise at 4mph? Apologies for my lack of knowledge..

The reason I am keen to get a bigger, more powerful boat, is because I would want to take it to the coast as often as possible, around 3 months of each year to take breaks from living in London. But it needs to be in London for the majority of the time as I work here, I am also not very keen on the idea of paying ridiculous private residential mooring fees on the thames. Am I perhaps aiming for more than I can achieve on a 20k budget?

Billy: the boat has stern drives, does this mean it might be possible to avoid a few chilling midwinter dips in a wetsuit? I was already preparing for the worst there.. do you know if it would perhaps be possible to attach weed hatches to the existing propellers?

Ryan: apologies, I've never heard of a gen set, I know the boat comes with four batteries but hadn't considered the ins and outs of it, I will investigate further

Thanks again so much to all of you- I really appreciate it!

 

[ryanroberts]

The Thames is pretty heavily enforced nowadays, unless you want to go full swampy. I cruised there for a couple of summers, but my girlfriend was mostly on the boat so we could keep up a 3 day pace most of the time, and there were still places you could hang around for a week or two. What are your working plans? If you want to be legitimate as a CC around London it's a lot more difficult than just taking the piss for a couple of years

 

[Gumpy]

This may seem rude but;
Its a very, very, very stupid idea
With stern drives it will get very expensive when they foul.
Just as a narrowboat is not a good idea out on the coast the Princess is not a good idea on the canals.
The quoted bridge heights are often centre of the arch heights not full width.
I have dragged a 60'x11'6" barge around the canals of SE England its airdraft was 6'6" with the wheelhouse down and it was tight in many places especially up the river Lea / Stort .
You would be far better off somewhere like the Medway and commute into London when you need to.

@Bru might have something to say on this if he is still about.

 

[Billy no mates.]

Thanks you all so much for all the advice, I'm overwhelmed by the response!

According to the CRT waterway dimensions, the maximum water draft I could have to navigate the entirety of the River Lea, the Grand Union and the Regents canal is 3'4", which I would need in order to clear the shallowest stretch of the grand Union, between Bulls Bridge and Rickmansworth.
The draft of the Princess 32 I want to buy is 2'9" so that shouldn't be a problem for me as far as I can tell.. please correct me if I'm wrong..

According to the same document, with a 7'6" air draft, I should be able to navigate the entirety of the regents canal, plus the river lea (up to ponders end) and the grand Union (up to Long Buckby).. this would give me over 100 miles to navigate along CRT waterways.. and I would only be required to travel 20 miles a year to meet the CRT rules, as far as I know..

The current air draft is 8'8", so I would need to reduce the height of the boat by at least 1'2" to clear all the bridges.. am I correct in thinking this? Judging on some of the boats I've seen that have had the wheelhouse conversion, I think it is quite likely that I will be able to reduce the height by that amount but I will certainly investigate further into wether or not this can be done.

As Ryan mentioned, I would need to cruise along the Thames in between journeys to access the different canals, however that shouldn't be too much work for the princess 32, should it?

Could anyone please explain to me why the condition of the twin engines would decrease if I were to cruise at 4mph? Apologies for my lack of knowledge..

The reason I am keen to get a bigger, more powerful boat, is because I would want to take it to the coast as often as possible, around 3 months of each year to take breaks from living in London. But it needs to be in London for the majority of the time as I work here, I am also not very keen on the idea of paying ridiculous private residential mooring fees on the thames. Am I perhaps aiming for more than I can achieve on a 20k budget?

Billy: the boat has stern drives, does this mean it might be possible to avoid a few chilling midwinter dips in a wetsuit? I was already preparing for the worst there.. do you know if it would perhaps be possible to attach weed hatches to the existing propellers?

Ryan: apologies, I've never heard of a gen set, I know the boat comes with four batteries but hadn't considered the ins and outs of it, I will investigate further

Thanks again so much to all of you- I really appreciate it!

If you have stern drives then they can be lifted as they are at the rear of the boat. I suggest you google narrowboat weed hatch to see what it really is. You will need to get up to speed on maintenance of the boat, electrics, battery management and engine servicing, London prices will destroy your dream otherwise.

 

[Bru]

@Bru might have something to say on this if he is still about.

I'm still here

I missed the OP though

And apologies to the OP but I have to concure that a Princess 32 is not really unsuitable for the canals for all the reasons already given

OP ... don't be taken in by the stated dimensions of the canals.

The air draft is at the centre of the bridge arches usually over a width of 7 feet (very very nominally and often entirely dependant on the whim of whoever last measured the bridge which may have been a Victorian chap with a measure stick!)

The stated maximum draft is in the centre of the canal and canals are basically 'u' shaped. Depths at the bank will usually be less, often significant;y less. Furthermore, it is usual for a shallow bar to form below locks due to the turbulence from the lock operation and unless the canal has been recently dredged this can drastically reduce the available depth

Etc. etc. as already covered by others

And then there's the as yet unmentioned elephant in the room ...

Just where precisely do you plan to live on this boat on the canals of London? They're full of people already flouting the rules!

From your comments, I fear you are falling into the trap of thinking you can live on a boat on the canals on a cruising licence whilst still maintaining shore ties such as work etc. Be warned that the so called "continous cruising" licence is no more and that the Canal & River Trust is MUCH more active and proactive at taking people to court, if necessary, if they are not *genuinely* cruising the year round. Simply moving backwards and forwards within a relatively confined area (such as Greater London) simply won't wash any more and whilst C&RT is up against a long difficult legal struggle to deal with the existing rampant illegal liveaboard problem in and around London, they ARE going to come down like a large quantity of rectangular building materials on anybody who rocks up on the scene fresh faced and all innocent looking

This subject has been much covered in the past hereabouts and eslewhere and you will hear all sorts of legalistic nonsense spouted by people who either don't know better or, far too often, damn well should know better. Nevermind the legal hair splitting that is often attempted on this subject, the simple principal is that you are either cruising full time (which means full time, not when work or other commitments permit) and over an extensive area (and not backwards and forwards over the same 50 or 60 miles of canals within reach of a particular location) or you MUST have a permanent mooring. And to live aboard on a permanent mooring it MUST be a legit residential mooring with planning permission etc. There are those that manage with care to operate under the radar on all of this but they are getting fewer with every passing year as they get swept up in the net of enforcement action agains those who simply flout the rules

In short, the canals do not offer a reseidential opportunity in the way you describe. And that applies in spades inand around Greater London

 

[Gumpy]

Think that should have read not really suitable rather than not really unsuitable

ETA the canals are more saucer shaped than U shaped.

 

[Bru]

Think that should have read not really suitable rather than not really unsuitable

ETA the canals are more saucer shaped than U shaped.

Bloddy autocorrupt strokes agin

Yeah, you're right on the shape actually, unless it's a squashed U

 

[luna muna]

You need to look at the draft (3ft IIRC) vs the depth of the canals you want to use :

Kodi nox ​

 

[duncan99210]

Diesel engines need to operate under load at near their rated optimum revolutions per minute (rpm) otherwise partially burnt fuel tends to break down in the cylinders into a varnish like substance, coating the walls of the cylinders. That’s not good for the engine and is called bore glazing because the surface doesn’t hold oil in the way it should, that in turn lead to the piston rings becoming worn and eventually a loss of compression in the engine. Expensive to treat, needing the removal of the engine to take it to a workshop to regrind the cylinders.
You will also need to carefully consider protecting the engine cooling water supply. Each of your engines will have a connection to the water via a through hull fitting. That water passes through a heat exchanger on the engine (which acts like the radiator in a car) before it is injected into the exhaust pipe, which is made of a rubber compound. That pipe leads to the outdrive where the exhaust gases exit the boat via ports in the drive or through a hull fitting. Any blockage by weed or debris will result in an overheated engine and possibly an burnt through exhaust. So some method of ensuring that you minimise the chance of a blockage at the inlet is required, as well as a way fo clearing the blockage without going under the boat: there are ways to do this but the adaptation will not be cheap. Boats intended for the canals avoid this by having rigid exhausts similar to cars with the attendant need to make sure they’re sited so as to minimise the chances of causing burn to the crew or fires. Cooling systems are usually what are referred to as keel cooling: a large tank in the bottom of the boat in contact with the steel hull, through which coolant is circulated. There’s no practical way to convert a Broom to these sorts of exhaust and cooling arrangements.
A gen set is a built in generator to supply mains voltage electricity to the boat. You either run it whenever you want electricity or for a period most days to recharge the batteries. Running a generator at night is a highly antisocial activity.... The alternatives are running the main engine(s) but see above about bore glazing or a suitcase generator of some breed. Be incredibly aware of the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning from a suitcase generator, there are fatalities most years amongst boaters who fail to take this into account.
Others have pointed out how wildly incompatible the sort of boat you’re thinking of is relation to the canal network. Just don’t do it. My brother lived aboard a narrow boat in the north of England, we once went on a short trip to a local pub and caught a golf umbrella in the prop. A narrow boat has a hatch over the top of the propellor (weed hatch) so we could reach down into the water and remove the umbrella. It took us 30 minutes in freezing cold water. Both of us wound up very cold and had an amazing collection of small cuts and nicks in our hands. And that was where we could just reach down into the water through an open hatch. If you were trying to remove that sort of stuff from an outdrive propellor, you’d wind up in the canal to do it, as there’s no way to access them from the boat. And there’s the additional problem of steering. You don’t have a rudder with outdrives, you rely on turning the propellors to steer the boat: once the propellors stop turning you have no real steering at all. If you pick up something which stops the drive in the middle of the canal, you will have a significant problem getting to the bank!
I could go on but I think you get the drift. Unless you can identify and pay for a residential mooring near to the canal entrance to the Thames, it’s a non starter.

 

[st599]

It's probably better answered by the chaps on the Thames forum who will have more local knowledge of conditions.

I work as a powerboat instructor on the non-Tidal Thames from time to time. There are plenty of larger boats there, but even then you get a few running aground - there's a Victorian punting "shelf" under the water on many sections reducing the draft to about 1 foot.

They can give better advice on boat types for the canals, non-Tidal and Tidal Thames and the current restrictions such as no traffic being able to pass under Hammersmith Bridge for the forseeable.

 

[rotrax]

Thanks you all so much for all the advice, I'm overwhelmed by the response!

According to the CRT waterway dimensions, the maximum water draft I could have to navigate the entirety of the River Lea, the Grand Union and the Regents canal is 3'4", which I would need in order to clear the shallowest stretch of the grand Union, between Bulls Bridge and Rickmansworth.
The draft of the Princess 32 I want to buy is 2'9" so that shouldn't be a problem for me as far as I can tell.. please correct me if I'm wrong..

According to the same document, with a 7'6" air draft, I should be able to navigate the entirety of the regents canal, plus the river lea (up to ponders end) and the grand Union (up to Long Buckby).. this would give me over 100 miles to navigate along CRT waterways.. and I would only be required to travel 20 miles a year to meet the CRT rules, as far as I know..

The current air draft is 8'8", so I would need to reduce the height of the boat by at least 1'2" to clear all the bridges.. am I correct in thinking this? Judging on some of the boats I've seen that have had the wheelhouse conversion, I think it is quite likely that I will be able to reduce the height by that amount but I will certainly investigate further into wether or not this can be done.

As Ryan mentioned, I would need to cruise along the Thames in between journeys to access the different canals, however that shouldn't be too much work for the princess 32, should it?

Could anyone please explain to me why the condition of the twin engines would decrease if I were to cruise at 4mph? Apologies for my lack of knowledge..

The reason I am keen to get a bigger, more powerful boat, is because I would want to take it to the coast as often as possible, around 3 months of each year to take breaks from living in London. But it needs to be in London for the majority of the time as I work here, I am also not very keen on the idea of paying ridiculous private residential mooring fees on the thames. Am I perhaps aiming for more than I can achieve on a 20k budget?

Billy: the boat has stern drives, does this mean it might be possible to avoid a few chilling midwinter dips in a wetsuit? I was already preparing for the worst there.. do you know if it would perhaps be possible to attach weed hatches to the existing propellers?

Ryan: apologies, I've never heard of a gen set, I know the boat comes with four batteries but hadn't considered the ins and outs of it, I will investigate further

Thanks again so much to all of you- I really appreciate it!

You must consider air draught width also - many, not all, canal bridges are arched. Narrow boats were designed with quite pronounced 'tumblehome' - tapered sides - so they could negotiate these.

I have seen several GRP Motor Boats clout bridgeholes with their topsides causing extensive damage to the boats.

With plenty of room no doubt the boat you are interested in would pass broad canal bridgeholes. Unfortunately other boats, made of steel especially for navigating canals, use them too.

Meet one at the wrong time at a bridgehole, expect damage!

Seen it happen.

 

[Bru]

Meet one at the wrong time at a bridgehole, expect damage!

Seen it happen.

So has Loddon

 

[Gumpy]

So has Loddon

Was this the Denham Bridge incident?

 

[Bru]

Was this the Denham Bridge incident?

I plead the fifth amendment

 

[Gumpy]

I plead the fifth amendment

I would score that at Town Class working boats 0 Parglena 1
I don't know if PA ever forgave me for that.