Confused

[Guest]

Picture the scene, Leaving harbour in restricted channel on medium sixe power boat. keeping to the correct side as there is approx 6 sailing boats coming in on the tide with the wind from r/h side. Sailing dingy crosses the channel from my left. I slow down to allow him to pass accross the bow assuming he will continue into the shallower water outside the channel. No wrong, he tacks exactly on my bow and moves off down the middle channel. Shouting and trying to force me to overtake him down the wrong side of the channel in the face of the oncoming sail cruisers. I would point out that he caused 2 sail boats to take evasive action and shouted at both of them. The dingy wasn't racing and we could see no reason for his action.
Having put up with brainless rowers and sailers on the river for over 30 years, I thought the sea would be a change where people had some sense. Have I got it wrong again. Have sail boaters an indifferent regard for all other boaters including their own kind. Is the only answer to continue on my way and ignore all other boaters in the sure knowledge that he would do the same for me. I would point out that we were leaving the harbour within the speed limit for sea trials on our new boat, with a very experienced representaive of the brokers on the helm. The sale is now going through and soon we shall be south coast boaters. I would be gratefull if someone could point out what is to be expected from me and what I should expect from you!

 

[vyv_cox]

Life as we know it

There are inconsiderate b*****ds in every field of human activity, just as there are considerate and friendly ones. Please don't put all sailors in the former category and motor boaters in the latter, although you will doubtless appreciate that many sailors do the vice versa.

It's just all part of the rich tapestry of life.

 

[peterg]

On a couple of days tuition last year with a very experienced ex-naval commander who is well respected in the industry we had cause to encounter similar events to yours and every time his attitude was "we are doing everything correctly so we stand our ground(water?) and let them get out of the way otherwise they will never learn to do it properly" but of course we also slowed to avoid a collision but did not deviate from the correct side of the channel as this could cause problems for other boats and then of course we would be on the wrong side and therefore in the wrong should a collision occur according to the Colregs.

 

[robp]

Entirely reasonable post. I've come to the conclusion, as a yachtsman, that many dinghy sailors, whilst brilliant at sailing have no knowledge or interest in col regs. (No alternative means of propulsion means overall right of way). Having left my harbour last Saturday with an extremely testing "gauntlet run" of racing dinghys across the fairways, I decided that I would sail back in on Sunday, on starboard tack, however light the breeze. Correct side of restrictive channel, starboard tack - dinghys on port tack still refusing to bear away as was possible. As Peter said, do it all correctly and stand on, with due regard for safety, (and reason). Hair-raising though!

 

[Guest]

I'm sure it comes as no surprise to know that the majority of dinghy racers have no comprehension of the collision regs. I've been racing for 20 years and only recently has an interest in bigger yachts forced me to go to school and learn. Racers learn that power gives way to sail and apart from that if racing the whole world should give way to you.

I have some sympathy with this, dinghy racers put in huge amounts of time and money to compete and those efforts are sometimes spoiled by cruisers (both power and sail) showing disregard for racers or being just plain bloody minded. But the arrogance of some of those dinghy racers is at times amazing ! Dinghy racers should understand coll regs and our race training syllabus must be partly to blame for this.

To be fair though how many cruising sailors have any comprehension of the racing rules (completely reworked a few years ago), or the fine level between control and disaster that modern high performance dinghy's have. To the cruising yacht that sailed through a windy 3 sail reach at a recent dinghy regatta I sailed at (calling 'windward boat' to 60 + dinghies) - did you have any idea of the unfair advantage you gave to some boats, the potential damage you faced, the potential damage the dinghies faced - those white faces were white with fear, not anger (that came later) !

For my own previous indisretions I apologise !

Not much real point to this, but I thought it fun to write the post and where else but scuttlebutt ;-)

 

[Adrian_Morgan]

"...wind from r/h side. Sailing dingy crosses the channel from my left"; was that his right hand side, or was he on starboard tack. Or maybe he was on port tack and the wind was coming from his left, or perhaps that was the port side (looking backwards).
Perhaps we'd have more faith in our motor boating friends if they learnt the rudiments of the language used at sea.

Having said that, dinghies can be an absolute pain, especially when racing. But I take it you are going to be one of the many motor boaters who slow down when they pass a sailing boat, wave cheerily (as a driver does to a horse rider) before gently throttling up, having given the sailing boat as wide a berth as possible.

In which case, blessings be upon you.

 

[Guest]

But why should a motor boater be interested in knowing about port tack and starbord tack? It's irrelevant knowledge for him, and doesn't affect rights of way as between the dinghy and motorcruiser.

 

[iangrant]

Re: Life as we know it

I do both sail & motor, there is good and bad in both - sailors however usually are more reasonable creatures and normally have some training as a matter of course. Not so sure about the turn up turn the key brigade!!
I saw a lovely one in Emsworth, a VERY angry dingy sailor, storming up the pontoon to a fisher 30. "You bloody well ran me down, the bloke in the fisher didn't even realise he had! Save for the scratch on the bow!! Tee Hee.

 

[Guest]

I'd imagine that being able to predict other boats actions (the outcome of yacht on yacht interactions) is useful for all water users.

 

[Adrian_Morgan]

Omygod. It's worse than I thought. You imply there are motor boaters out there who don't see why they should know port tack from starboard (and how a likely crossing scenario between two yachts on their bow might affect them), let alone use the accepted terminolgy for channels, etc.

OK. Let's just use left and right, middle, back, front and to hell with porthand and starboardhand buoys; pilots will now say "leave the buoy to your left..." etc, etc.

 

[Guest]

No, I don't imply that "there are motor boaters out there who don't see why they should know port tack from starboard".

I'm a sailor, not a motor boater, and I don't see that port tack giving way to starboard tack is a vital bit of information for a motor boater. It doesn't affect in the slightest who they have to give way to.

Motor boaters however ought generally to be aware of why yachts have to tack.

As for whether a motor boater uses the terms port and starboard or left and right, on the whole, I couldn't care less.

As for foreseeing how a scenario between two yachts will play out, that's of little use: they should be aware that if two yachts are heading for each other then one (or both) yachts will hopefully take remedial action, which might include tacking. They should be prepared for either yacht tacking since things do not always pan out strictly according to the collision rules, and the starboard yacht might WANT to tack anyway.

Sailing isn't helped by yachties being patronising or feigning superior knowledge to motor boaters.

 

[Guest]

Seamanship

The message should be that all those who go down to the sea in ships should have a proper awareness of what's going on around them and that includes understanding the actions other seafarers are likely to take- then take appropriate action (!).

With respect to dinghy racers- why don't the clubs take some responsibility for educating their members in basic seamanship/R.O.R.?

 

[Guest]

Did you know that there are some yachtsmen who can't recognise the lights of, say, a fishing vessel engaged in trawling operations at night?

Now THAT's shocking. But a motorboater not knowing whether a port tack yacht will give way to a starboard tack yacht?

No, can't get worked up about that.

 

[Guest]

Re: Seamanship

I've been in the Solent clearing a a rope from my prop and in the distance a large dinghy was noted to be heading our way, even though we were 'dead in the water' this comedian just kept heading towads me.

Until he was 20ft away at which point he had to take action to avoid hitting me,and his response ?

"Power gives way to sail, get out the effing way".Shame he didnt stop to discuss the event as I now had 100yds of nylon rope that held no significant value.


Im just out to enjoy my weekend and have no interest in having an arguement or slanging match with other water users.

But dinghys are a pain.....Oh and I used to sail dinghys and would like to apologise to all other water users in Abersoch I have inadvertantly p*ssed off.

 

[Adrian_Morgan]

You say "I'm a sailor, not a motor boater, and I don't see that port tack giving way to starboard tack is a vital bit of information for a motor boater. It doesn't affect in the slightest who they have to give way to. Motor boaters however ought generally to be aware of why yachts have to tack.
As for whether a motor boater uses the terms port and starboard or left and right, on the whole, I couldn't care less..."

Oh but it does matter. A motor boater should know precisely (not generally) why a sailing yacht has to tack and when it is likely to do so. Just as it matters that sailors appreciate precisely the problems single engined, outdrive driven motor boaters have in manoeuvring in confined spaces at low speed. It also matters that we use, at least, the basic common terms, the ones used on charts and pilot books for many reasons, not least in emergency situations involving communication with coastguards, etc. Port is not the same as left, nor starboard synonymous with right, as you know. That would mean a helmsman looking over his shoulder calling the starboard side of his port the left side, and vice versa when he looks forward. "I can see land off to my left," he'd say, looking forward. Then, as it came aft of the beam he'd say "it's now on my right." Do me a favour.
I am not being superior is suggesting aall sea users acquire as deep a knowledge of other sea users as possible. Then problems between motor and sail would diminish.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Big boats squash small boats.

Collision Regs are the most important decider and collision must be avoided whether right of way exists or not, then the rest merely become an academic argument.

Who says that racing boats have right of way... not in my rules of the sea.

Restricted channel ie depth of water and ability to navigate has some bearing on matters.

What is that dinghy going to do ... ram you perhaps? More fool him. I know who will come off the better. Perhaps a load of bilgewater emptied overboard at the appropriate time might be of some use, especially if the dinghy passes close enough. May encourage future leaning of Rules of the Sea.

Happy boating, but no matter how perfect the boating world there are always idiots who are better consigned to Davy Jones Locker.

 

[Guest]

Well, I agree that in an ideal world we all would know everything about one another.

But people do go to sea without for example knowing all the colregs backwards. eg. doesn't the Day Skipper course only gives a potted version of them? And I wouldn't be particularly shocked at someone putting to sea with just a Day Skipper qualification.

Knowing that port gives way to starboard I would put into the category of a nice optional extra for a motor boater. But it's not needed for the purposes of the colregs.

There wasn't any evidence that Starfish doesn't know what "port" and "starboard" mean, or for that matter whether he uses them on board. He is after all, posting on a forum, not navigating. I agree that everyone should know what "port" and "starboard" mean. Pesonally I would always use that terminology on board (although to a beginner I might mutter "left" under my breath when they start looking puzzled). I don't mind if another skipper says "left" and "right" instead if he does it in a manner that doesn't cause a risk for anyone.

Reading Starfish's posting, he seems to have been the victim, and I wouldn't condemn him just because he said left and right.

 

[iangrant]

JUST a day skipper? There are a whole lot more out there with NOTHING!!

 

[robp]

There's nothing in your reply that any reasonable sailor (power or sail) would disagree. The main point though is Safety and Reason. Now with capitals. "The fine level between control and disaster that modern high performance dinghy's have", is not always demonstrated by the attitude of their pilots. The guy (with his very young family on board) who went at me and deliberately rammed my towed dinghy. whilst he could have just as easily sailed off the wind a few degrees, was just not reasonable. His ignorance could have cost him money. Family wouldn't have been impressed by that. Most if not all yachsmen, can see the difference between a dinghy sailor who is trying his hardest to maintain control and one who is intent on not changing direction for yachts.

Yachts and power boats should avoid dinghy races where they can and be emminently reasonable where they can't. After that the dinghys have to take their responsiblities seriously.

 

[Guest]

I can't find fault with your post.