confused, do i need ICC

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mbay

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Have charted a 36ft sailing boat out of palma in June and I'm really looking forward to sailing in my shorts instead of my thermals.
I emailed the agent my signed contract and they also asked me to send them scanned copies of my RYA qualifications which I did these were yachtmaster and dayskipper shore based only and short range VHF, I also added that I will be taking an ICC course before the departure date of the holiday and would send a copy of this when I got it. However the agent emailed me back thanking me for the scanned copies and stating I did not need to do an ICC as my RYA qualifications will suffice.
I was of the belief that I needed an ICC or dayskipper practical to charter a boat in Spain so phoned the agent to check, the girl I spoke too said she would find out for sure from a colleague what qualifications I needed and promptly phoned me back stating that what they have already is all that is required. But I’d hate to get there only to be told “senior tis no good” so please can somebody in the know enlighten me?
 
My auntie and her partner have spent a few years now living on their yacht in the Med - and they have absolutely no sailing qualifications between them, not even an ICC, although they have been round the world (slowly, over the past 12 years) on their Cal 46.

And they have never been asked in any port in the Med for any paperwork re qualifications. The boat is American flagged - could this be the reason?
 
The rules for chartering are not quite the same as skippering your own yacht. The chater company will probably have the yachts under Spanish registry where the onus is upon the owner to ensure that anyone chartering is suitably qualified. Some flotilla yacht companies, especially in Greece, charter to completely unqualified people. If asked for documents while chartering simply refer the authorities to the company. No problem. Carry on and do your practical and get your ICC in your own time and don't worry about it..
 
You won't have a problem picking up the yacht, that's nearly certain. However, strictly speaking you should have an ICC (the only officially-recognised yachting qualification issued by the UK) to sail a Spanish registered yacht. If the yacht is British registered (that is possible) then, as a British citizen, you would not need an ICC because UK Maritime law does not require its citizens to be qualified to sail pleasure vessels.

The Spanish take yachting qualifications more seriously than we do and the course is very thorough; Spanish citizens are required to hold the Patron de Yate certificate. So are British citizens sailing a Spanish registered yacht so if you borrow your mate's Spanish yacht, you ought to get a Patron de Yate.

Marinas know that Brits don't have qualifications - they scribble out that section before you can even produce your ICC. They could ask for them, but they don't. They do ask for proof of insurance and I suggest you make sure that you have a copy of the insurance with you. A photocopy has always worked fine for me and those I've discussed it with.

The only time you are likely to have a problem is if you are boarded or if there is an incident. You are highly unlikely to be boarded as all Spanish vessels have a clearly marked registration number and vessels coded for charter have the prefix '6' not '7'. If you are involved in an incident, however, that might be a different story. Like anywhere in the world, once the authorities get involved the first thing they ask for is the papers and that includes your insurance and your qualifications.

All things considered, it would be a good idea to get the ICC before you go if you possibly can. If it turns out to be impractical to get the ICC then don't worry, I'm sure that the charter firm goes through this all the time and even though her English may not have sounded good she probably understood you. If you want to be 100% sure, why not fax the simple question to them so that in the event of a problem you can point to the fax.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My auntie and her partner have spent a few years now living on their yacht in the Med - and they have absolutely no sailing qualifications between them, not even an ICC, although they have been round the world (slowly, over the past 12 years) on their Cal 46.

And they have never been asked in any port in the Med for any paperwork re qualifications. The boat is American flagged - could this be the reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been sailing for nigh on 40 years, and I don't have a paper qualification to my name. It seems to me that many on these forums set great store by ICC or RYA bits of paper?

Have a look at this......

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/VWS015/

Ocean Yachmaster, in 14 weeks?..........now that to me is scary! I think you need just a bit more EXPERIENCE to call yourself an Ocean Yacht Master, than 14 weeks pratting about in the Solent or wherever?

I would be interested in others views on this?
 
I know loads of people who have been regularly drinking and driving for decades and have never been stopped. Others have been heavy smokers all their lives and died in their 80s from non-smoking related complaints.

Does that mean it's safe to drink and drive, or smoke?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I know loads of people who have been regularly drinking and driving for decades and have never been stopped. Others have been heavy smokers all their lives and died in their 80s from non-smoking related complaints.

Does that mean it's safe to drink and drive, or smoke?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have either missed the point, or I am having trouble understanding yours?

How about something a little more lucid?
 
[quoteYou have either missed the point, or I am having trouble understanding yours?How about something a little more lucid?

[/ QUOTE ]You said "I have been sailing for nigh on 40 years, and I don't have a paper qualification to my name. It seems to me that many on these forums set great store by ICC or RYA bits of paper?" Suggesting that people really don't need to follow the rules (in case you are having difficulty following this, the rules say you must have an ICC when sailing a non-British yacht). You base this on your experience of never having had to prove that you comply. The point is that even if nobody has ever asked you to prove your competence, it does not follow that nobody else will be asked to. Especially after an incident. Is that clear enough for you?

Just like the fellows who drink and drive or who smoke, some do get away with it but it doesn't follow that it is a desirable or sensible practice. Do you follow that? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
my post was to find out if i did or did not need at least the ICC to charter a boat in spain. I don't want to do the ICC if I don't have to, having seen the sylabus for the practical side of the exam I do not want to waste time and money doing the very basic manouvers (things i do everytime i leave my mooring apart from the mob)
Thank you
 
Hi, the manoeuvres are far from just the basics. The examiner will want to see a general level of competence which, depending on the weather, could include almost anything. I mucked-up a going-alongside manoeuvre in mine, but got it right second-time. Easy to do under any conditions. It is not a waste of time especially if you have never had a practical sailing test. You won't lose if you fail but you are very unlikely to fail. You are likely to learn, and enjoy it. You won't regret it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[quoteYou have either missed the point, or I am having trouble understanding yours?How about something a little more lucid?

[/ QUOTE ]You said "I have been sailing for nigh on 40 years, and I don't have a paper qualification to my name. It seems to me that many on these forums set great store by ICC or RYA bits of paper?" Suggesting that people really don't need to follow the rules (in case you are having difficulty following this, the rules say you must have an ICC when sailing a non-British yacht). You base this on your experience of never having had to prove that you comply. The point is that even if nobody has ever asked you to prove your competence, it does not follow that nobody else will be asked to. Especially after an incident. Is that clear enough for you?

Just like the fellows who drink and drive or who smoke, some do get away with it but it doesn't follow that it is a desirable or sensible practice. Do you follow that? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no, you are answering a question I didn't ask. I didn't suggest anything about people not adhering to the rules.

What I was suggesting, was that perhaps it isn't really a good idea that people should be lulled into thinking that because they have got a piece of paper, after swanning around for 14 weeks, that they are proper pucca yachtmaster chappies!

Which of course they are not, they have only just started, because you can have a barra load of paper, but there just is no substitute for experience! Perhaps that is why so many so called qualified yotties get themselves in the crapper?

maybe you will read this post a little more closely, and answer the points raised in it? I realise that it entails a bit of thread drift, but hey! It's only words on a Computer screen, not tablets of stone. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I don't want to sound condescending and thank you kindly for your advice and have taken all you have said on board.
However I feel confidant in handling my own boat a long keeler that’s weighs in at 6ton and have owned for 4 years now and have also had tuition from very experienced sailors from within the yacht club where I’m based, I'm just trying to save myself £100 or there about as I would rather spend the money on the boat.
Thanks again
 
A UK issued ICC is a certificate by which the UK government states that, on a UK registered boat, the holder is suitably qualified to be in charge of that boat. Interestingly, Spain and some other countries have not ratified the treaty which recognises this form of certificate.

A UK issued ICC is not (in law) valid as a certificate of competence to drive non-UK flag vessels. So it is not (in law) a qualification to charter (for instance) a Spanish flagged yacht. In reality however, most foreign flag authorities will accept an ICC, or suitable RYA certificates, as proof of competence.

Local charter companies will have come to agreements with their local port authorities on how to deal with such ambiguities, which are quite common in Roman law systems (and once upon a time, very useful as a means of ensuring a side income for officials).

If your charter company accepts your qualifications (whatever they are), the local authorities will. But if you're nervous, get it in writing.

In practice, inspection of qualifications in all Mediterranean countries (unless you're going on inland waters, or launching from land) is very rare, but does occur. And on those events, if a qualification is not (or cannot be) produced, I have never heard of any consequences (omitting the exceptions above).

You'll find a reference (rather dense to read) of many of these points at ICC rules .

My qualifications for comments about current practice arises from years of running a moderately sized charter company in several areas of the Med, plus a number of straw polls asking several hundreds of live-aboards and charterers what their experiences were. I'm still learning.

But there's no cause to worry if you're chartering and you haven't given any false information.
 
Jim, I agree entirely and if all those charter companies running flotillas for baby sailors who have never been afloat before around the Ionian could only charter their boats to people with ICCs they would go out of business. The ICC as you say is a UK cert for Brits on UK boats. Others may accept it in lieu of anything else but the charterer himself in this case will have dealt with local authorities and law already and have already told him he doesn't need anything else. Lemain's advice that you need one to charter a Spanish registered vessel is rubbish. I have a full ICC and have chartered several times. I have never been asked for it and whenever I have presented it no one wanted to see it as the charterer had it covered. On my own boat howaver I have been asked for it several times in France. Once on inland waterways (yes it was endorsed and I carried copies of CEVNI!) Once in the Capitanerie in Binic by an over officious pillock who just gave the guy in front in the queue a 3 star bollxing for not having one and was dissapointed he couldn't do the same to me, and once when boarded by a customs patrol boat off Ouistreham.
You don't need one to charter a foreign registered boat. If the charter company says you don't need it you don't need it! You should have one to go foreign with your own boat though.
 
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