Complete rewiring lights/electrics

pmagowan

pmagowan

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Hi as part of my restoration project I am going to rewire my 28 foot honeybee yacht (mahogany carvel). The old wiring was just halfords style with some household electric cable. I have ripped most of it out. Now I need to choose what to replace it all with so a few questions.

What would be the best nav light set-up? Currently have tricolour masthead light, a halfway up mast anc/deck light, stern light and 2 side lights. How would you switch this for, under sail, motor anchor? I would like to keep load low so should I buy replacement LED bulbs or whole LED units?

Internal; GPS, VHF, depth sounder, 3x cabin lights, bilge pump. May want radar

Should i wire each to a separate switch?

Would it be good to wire in some cigarette lighter style sockets?

I intend to install a mini circuit breaker panel and I have recently purchased a merlin battery monitor. How do I work out the circuit breaker size?
I have lifetime cable 12agw from merlin also.

Thanks and I am sure I have missed a few things
 
pmagowan

For nav lights - one switch for 2 sidelights (red/green) and stern lights
one for steaming light
one for tricolor
one for anchor light
one for the deck light
I'd use one breaker for nav lights and a separate switch panel for turning each on.
LEDs are great but in order for them to be approved you should buy complete fixtures - but they're expensive.
Gps, depth, and vhf should be on their own breakers. If you install radar it should be separate as well. Some electronics requires a fuse of its own but the manual will tell you this - these can be fuses near them.
Bilge pump should be direct to the battery if it has a float switch (it should have) These accomodate the 2 positive wires - one for manual and one for automatic operation and are fused themselves.
Cabin lights (only 3?) are usually on 2 circuits so if one goes you're not in total darkness. Lights usually have their own switches on the light itself.
I'd wire two cigarette type sockets - one in or close to the cockpit (get a waterproof one) and one inside where convenient.
Circuit breakers are sized for the wire. 12awg is heavier than you need but better big than small. 12awg is rated for 38amps (engine compartment) and 45 amps outside. You want the breaker to be less than this but more than enough for the load. I'd use 20 amp breakers.
And a master switch for the feed to panel and engine (bilge pump direct)
And yes, you always miss a few things so buy a panel with room to grow.
Hope this helps.
Brian
 
I agree with most of the above from mitiempo

A full complement of navigation lights gives flexibility to use deck level lights when more appropriate and often as alternative in the event of bulb failure.

A bicolour could be fitted in place of separate side lights.

An allround white combined into the same lantern as the tricolour gives you the option of using it in place of stern and steaming lights as well as an anchor light.

A little ingenuity with the switching can produce a system in which it is not possible to show an "illegal" combination.

I agrree that if LED lights are to be used then complete LED based lanterns rather than LED replacement bulbs for conventional lanterns is the way to go. Too expensive for me though so stuck to filament bulbs.

Yes all major items of gear on their own switches (mcbs). One fault won't then put other stuff out of action .
Remember VHF takes a significant current when transmitting and will not take kindly to a low supply volage. A separate feed from the battery used to be recommended at one time although don't see that mentioned theses days.

If cigar lighter type sockets are used then source some decent marine quality ones into which the plugs will lock. Car accessory types are guaranteed to make poor connections even before they go rusty.

Cables should be sized according to the current and length of run so that volts drop does not exceed 3%. There are calculators on line to facilitate that.
MCBs should always be rated below the max safe current for the thinnest cable they supply. Need not all be the same rating.

12 AWG may be suitable for much of the wiring but unnecessarily heavy for lower current items. There may be times also when the combination of current and run length will dictate a heavier cable. You'll need something heavier for the battery to panel connections.

No mention of battery banks and charging arrangements. Dedicated starter and domestic banks ??

Separate isolator switches rather than a 1, 2, both, off switch. Can get a VSR for two bank charging combined with the switches.
Other more sophisticated systems available too. Also fancy alternator control systems.
 
Thanks

Thanks mitiempo and VicS, some useful info there. I have a 40 amp alternator on a beta 20hp. It didn't seem to be working so I have it out and am going to bet it serviced locally. Last sail (to get the boat to slip) couldn't get the engine to start and eventially traced the falt to a completely severed red cabel to the starter motor (vibration damage). The spaghetti junction of wires and connectors made it difficult to work out which bit was wrong.

Only 3 cabin lights! I prefer to use tilley and oil lamps as this gets the boat warmed up also. There is one light over the heads and one on either side for the forward 'cabin'.

LED's: They are expensive even as bulbs. I looked at a site (searolf i think) and they sell coloured bulbs for replacement in existing lens. This would be way cheaper than whole unit. I really think LED is the way to go as I would like to keep power consumption down.

I have bought a VSR system from merlin (got all this stuff at the SBS) and intend to have 2 battery banks. They will not be big ?110AH domestic.

mitiempo you advocate a lot of switches for lighting and I am a minimalist in this regards. Am I right in thinking there are only 3 combinations of lights required: anchor, steaming and nav? I was looking at the nasa LED masthead lights as they seem a cheap all in 1 unit and did well in the PBO test.

The wire: It is a bit big for some things but it seemed cheaped to me to buy a big role of large than lots of different sizes and I think oversizing is better. Will have to do some sums with the tables for 3% volt drop but I think if using LED's should be OK.

I was looking at a circuit breaker panel with 12 switches so:
GPS
VHF
Depth
Cabin lights
Ancor light
Nav lights
Bilge
12v plugs
?radar
3 spares

I might be fancy and wire in wee led lights and a little picture of a boat.

The bilge pump has a float switch and currently runs automatic with a manual override. Auto is very neccessary on a wooden boat.

I think the Merlin VSR cluster thing has a master switch (is this the only one needed?

Sorry for long post. i don't mind electrics but am more used to AC house wiring and so 'just knowing' what size a wire or CB should be doesn't apply.
Thanks again
 
Yes Merlin VSR / battery switch cluster is what i had in mind for a basic split charging system combined with battery switches.

I think you will need to look at something more than just a single nav light switch unless of course you fed from that to a secondary panel with other switches on it. The combinations of lights you might want to use are.

Tricolour only, when sailing.

Side lights (or bicolour) + stern, as an alternative to the tricolour.

Side lights + stern + steaming, when under power.

Side lights + all-round white, as an alternative when under power.

All round white, when anchored.​

Remember that although high level lights may seem the better idea at sea they become invisible to the bridge crew on a ship when there are shore lights behind. Entering a busy commercial harbour is one place deck level lights become essential.

As I said a bit of ingenuity with two way and/or double pole switches will enable you to devise a switching system that only permits one of the above legal combinations.

(I dont have an all-round white but I have the others and they are wired so that only legal combinations can be used ... very simple without the all-round white .. gets somewhat more complex once that is thrown into the mix)

Autopilot ??? (vital bit of kit IMHO)
Electrically operated valve on gas supply??
Log, but could be on a common supply with the echo-sounder and other Instruments such as the GPS.
Compass light
Fridge
Heater
Freshwater pump

Probably a good idea to bear in mind that electrical systems tend to grow so allow space to install a supplementary switch panel at some time in the future.

If you do opt for LED bulbs in conventional lanterns then make sure you use the correct ones. The spectral properties of the LED clusters must mach the colour of the lenses ... you cannot simply put any old white LED cluster in a port or starboard lantern. More sensible IMHO would be coloured LED clusters in lanterns with clear lenses.
 
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Thanks VicS

Lights: I presume the one about 10 feet up the mast in the forward triangle is an ancor light. It seems it would be obscured from stern. This light also has a deck illuminating light at its bottom. I am not sure if it is wired so that these can be individually switched. Do I need the tricolour at the top of the mast?

For sailing: stern light and red port, green starboard lights
Motoring: as for sailing plus white half up mast light?
Anchor: Half way up mast light plus all round white at top of mast?

I would prefer them all to be switched in useable clusters on the one panel. i.e no need to separate stern and side lights as will always be all or none.

I would love an Autopilot (tillerpilot) but budget tight and getting tighter with each new bit of restoration. I do have an old 2 pin socket in the cockpit so I presume that would do a tillerpilot if I needed?
Gas is old fashioned hand powered valve
Log/echo combined in one unit currently (would like GMI10)
Compass has no light (we use red head torches). There is also currently no where to mount a compass properly. I know you need the old fashioned compass but is there any problem with the one the GMI10 has in it (bar power failure)
No fridge (no room)
No heater (tilley lamp does this)
Fresh water currently in big leaky plastic bottle. We do have a stainless tank in the bilge but would need some work to get it going and then I will use the hand power again

I thought 12 rocker circuit breakers would give me at least 3 spare. There are only 6 fused switches currently and I am not adding much electrical equipment.

Thanks again for your advice. it is really good to have a sounding board to bounce these ideas off.
 
I presume the one about 10 feet up the mast in the forward triangle is an ancor light. It seems it would be obscured from stern. This light also has a deck illuminating light at its bottom. I am not sure if it is wired so that these can be individually switched.
Click to expand...

That will be a deck light combined with a steaming light.
(The term "steaming light" is used by many of us to describe what the regulations call the masthead light ... its only used under power and on a sailing vessel at any rate is often not placed right at the mast head.)

Do I need the tricolour at the top of the mast
Click to expand...
A tricolour is optional. It has the advantages of being high up for good visibility at sea. It's only one lamp so low power drain when sailing (or can use a more powerful lamp for better visible range without increasing battery drain) You dont get any glare from it in misty conditions or reflection from rigging stanchions etc that affect you night vision. Personally would always fit a tricolour.

Anchor: Half way up mast light plus all round white at top of mast?
Click to expand...
Only one light required for a boat this size. A white light visible through 360° in the forepart of the vessel or where it can best be seen.
An all-round white atop the mast satisfies that requirement but its disadvantage is that in a crowded anchorage it is above everyone's eye line.
Personally I have a battery powered LED lantern to hang in the rigging at eye level.

I know you need the old fashioned compass but is there any problem with the one the GMI10 has in it (bar power failure)
Click to expand...
I.m not familiar with the GMI10 but no objection to an electronic compass but would definitely want a traditional compass as a back up. I have a big old fashioned grid compass with an illuminating bulb above it. (useful for illuminating the cockpit floor too)

Beginning to guess you are not totally conversant with the Regulations requirements on light. See http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/msn_1781-2.pdf but would recommend the RYA booklet G2 as that is annotated with explanations for Yachtsmen.

You may also find my diagram useful. It shows the legal combinations for sail and power.

 
To save yourself a switch/breaker you can wire the compass light up to both the tricolour and nav lights through two 12v diodes so that the compass is illuminated when you switch on any of the nav lights.
 
Thanks VicS, I have the various regs etc on lights but every time it comes out on the forum there are different opinions. I think it is useful to get an idea of what other people are up to. It looks like I'm not doing any of the work myself (looking up regs etc), I do but the different options make it confusing. I'm becoming a bore at home as it is all I talk about. Think i've got a handle on it now.

The GMI10 is a garmin thing which displays lots of info in the cockpit, including a compass ring. I would like one because I dont have much room for lots of stuff so an instrument that can display all that is needed solves a problem.

I want to keep electrics to a minimum but have them very reliable when needed. I also want to know everything about my boats set-up so I can sort out any problems later on.

Thanks again
 
Very interesting, I am 'lurking' quietly and the advice on this thread seems excellent. As a lurker therefore, thank-you!

One suggestion is that you distinguish the anchor light from the steaming light or mast head lights. If you have a modern led light (can be battery powered) or a small hurricane lamp, hung 6ft up the forestay, it is exactly what the light regulations require, it is cheap and it is fully visible 360deg.

Cheers

Mike
 
One suggestion is that you distinguish the anchor light from the steaming light or mast head lights. If you have a modern led light (can be battery powered) or a small hurricane lamp, hung 6ft up the forestay, it is exactly what the light regulations require, it is cheap and it is fully visible 360deg.
Click to expand...
Yes the anchor light is not the same as the masthead (aka steaming) light. The steaming light is only visible from forward and round each side to 22.5° abaft the beam. The anchor light must be visible through 360°. An all round white on top of the mast can be used as the anchor light and can also be used in place of the stern and steaming lights when under power.

Hurricane lamps as anchor lights not a particularly good idea They fall very short on the brightness required by the Colregs and in my experience are apt to blow out in more than the slightest breeze ... heavens knows why they are called hurricane lamps.
However there are anchor lights that can be hung in the rigging and plugged in to a socket and now of course there are battery LED lanterns. I have one from Maplin that is bright enough to satisfy the Colregs. Nicely made and weatherproof but uses far too much power ... needs a fresh set of batteries (4 X AA) every night. . Also one that came from Aldi, not as bright, not weatherproof but will run continuously for weeks on a set of AAs.
Seateach were displaying what I think was one made by Draper. Looked good and they had it on the counter for customers to play with for quite a long time without it needing new batteries.
 
pmagowan said:
The GMI10 is a garmin thing which displays lots of info in the cockpit, including a compass ring. I would like one because I dont have much room for lots of stuff so an instrument that can display all that is needed solves a problem.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that? It would need a compass sensor to be able to display heading assuming it is able to do so. I think not having a simple magnetic compass you can steer by would be negligent.
 
Thanks Guys

aslabend, that compass light sounds nifty. i dont have a permanent mounted compass but a good idea.

I also lurk dmmbruce and am pleased with all the advice. The good thing about a lamp hung up is it could be a useful backup and also used in other situations.

Thanks again VicS. The nasa LED all round anchor light and tricolours look reasonable. I wonder, is it ok to have one on the top of the mast and one in the forward triangle or does this become confusing?

The GMI10 seems to get its compass info from the chart plotter (i think). I do have a big standard alcohol filled compass but there is nowhere easy to mount it. I have various other compass' of the hand held variety. I know it is not traditional to rely on electronic stuff but how likely are they to go wrong (more so than magnetic interference). Also the iphone has a compass in it which says to move away from interference when it is close to a car etc so does this have a sensor?

The boat is essentially stripped out so no major decisions made. Really useful to hear peoples opinions, Thanks
 
pmagowan
You're getting some good advice. The gm110 gets its heading info from gps. I believe the iphone uses gps for compass as well.
I would install a masthead 360 degree(at the top) anchor light and add to it with a cockpit light which could be a small led light hung from the boom and plugged into the cockpit cigarette socket. This will make you visible to those that don't look up.
Led lights will fade over time so for nav lights (red/green) you're better to have a dedicated fixture with colored lens and white leds than a clear fixture with colored leds.
You've included a breaker spot for bilge pump. If it has a float switch with control of both auto and manual it will (should) have its own small panel. This doesn't need a breaker as it should be wired direct to the battery so it will work automatically when you're not aboard and have the main switch shut off.
Brian
 
Personally I would advise against using tri or bi colour lights. I think they are the one of the worse things ever invented.

It is very difficult to work out a boats perspective from them - especially if its a bit choppy or your course isn't well held.

W.
 
Personally I would advise against using tri or bi colour lights. I think they are the one of the worse things ever invented.

It is very difficult to work out a boats perspective from them - especially if its a bit choppy or your course isn't well held
Click to expand...
They are a bit of a compromise but they are only allowed on small boats. Useful power saving it you don't have electrical power in great abundance. I like a tricolour because it puts the light well above the waves were it can always be seen.

Don't understand your objections.
If it's a bit difficult to determine whether its a red or a green, or a white or a colour then you know its likely to be a yacht with a bicolour or a tricolour and you are viewing it from dead ahead or over one of the quarters.
Problem over!
 
What I've done, in addition to normal belowdeck lighting, is add these led units. 1 red and 1 white over the galley counter and one of each over the chart table. Worked out so well that I'm adding more - one of each main cabin and one of each in the head area as well as one red in the cockpit footwell. Almost no power use and as I have a mostly light interior with white on a lot of surfaces I can do everything except read with them. They're waterproof and epoxy sealed so work outside. Here's the link. http://www.innovativelight.com/led-bulkhead-livewell-lights---recess-mount_p_1456_11499_3.cfmso available in amber, blue and green as well as red and white.
 
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VicS said:
They are a bit of a compromise but they are only allowed on small boats. Useful power saving it you don't have electrical power in great abundance. I like a tricolour because it puts the light well above the waves were it can always be seen.

Don't understand your objections.
If it's a bit difficult to determine whether its a red or a green, or a white or a colour then you know its likely to be a yacht with a bicolour or a tricolour and you are viewing it from dead ahead or over one of the quarters.
Problem over!
Click to expand...

Agree with the power saving but if you lose the bulb you lose all 3 lights...

Unfortunatetlyly as has been said high lights aren't always the best...

I spend most of my time operating in the 'restricted in ability to manouvere' mode so knowing if the other vessel is altering course or isn't on a collision bearing is important - can take us up to 10 minutes to recover the gear sufficently that we aren't going to do £000s of damage to it by agressive collision avoidance. Especially as a most of the vessels that use tricolours don't have AIS and don't tend to respond to radio calls that start with "Yacht in position...."

W.
 
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