Comparative sailing performance of motorsailers

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polhoff

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Hello.

I'm wondering about comparative sailing performance of motor sailers. I read that LM seems to perform quite well. What about Spey and Colvic Watson?

I guess there are several reasons why motorsailers sail less well : increased displacement partly because of heavier engines, higher profile out of the water so more likely to drift, and maybe smaller sail area (I don't know). What's the main factor ?

I'm not really bothered about performance, but I would like to be able to sail up wind to some extent. What is the no-go angle for motor sailers?

Thanks.
 
Only know a little about LM 30. I moored next to elderly German couple in Norderney with one. They'd sailed it three times round UK/and Ireland and up to North Cape. We set off in company and it looked quite weatherly. So they reckoned it sailed quite well - better than most motor sailers so praps a sailer motor -
 
'Motor sailers' as a single category is too wide. It's a bit like asking how do 'yachts' sail. On the one hand you have true heavy displacement, full keel boats like Fisher and Colvic Watson that sail OK but not brilliantly (I speak from experience) and on the other hand there are pilothouse yachts whose only concession to 'motor sailing' is the provision of an inside helm position.

Some of the more modern designs (and medium displacement) motor sailers can be very effective. For the last decade we've sailed a Cabo Rico NE400 and it points as well as most cruising yachts and can perform exceptionally well off the wind. A wide beam and long flat aft sections mean that reaching at 9 kts plus is a regular occurrence. That, on a 37' LOA/34' LWL hull would be considered very reasonable in most cruisers eyes.

Too many people miss out on the benefits of a modern motorsailer by persisting with the stereotype of a heavy, plodding boat. Learn to spot the distinctions within this generic term and you will find some very good boats!
 
polhoff said:
I guess there are several reasons why motorsailers sail less well : increased displacement partly because of heavier engines, higher profile out of the water so more likely to drift, and maybe smaller sail area (I don't know). What's the main factor ?
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I don't know from experience, but would guess that the main factor is that they are not designed with sailing performance as a high priority (and all boats are compromises - you can't have everything!). The typical customer will motor to windward, rather than beat, and be putting a high priority on accommodation and comfort. They thus tend to be beamy, voluminous, full ends, shallow draft, etc. - i/e hull shape, will be a bigger factor, I would guess, than any of weight, windage, sail area, but those will be in the mix, too.

I did read that the Konsort Duo sails quite well, as it has the same hull as the Konsort. So that is a particular case where the only difference was the weight windage and sail area, but I'm not sure that's really considered a full-blooded motor-sailer. anyway. (And there ain't many of 'em about, perhaps in part for that reason.)
 
"Sail OK but not brilliantly" is spot on. A heavy displacement Colvic/Fisher type often has too short a main mast because of design and original useage parameters and this most affects windward performance because of the lack of high aspect foils. In reality we can sail at 45 but a switch to 50 has a significant impact on VMG. What the boat and rig can do though is carry a big sail for reaching and running where foil height is much less important, hence we've kept up very nicely with some faster boats with our big chute and reacher sail - you also reef/unreef less often in gusty or changing conditions. The compromises for a Ben/Jen/Bav are blurred, they do a brilliant job of being good enough at most things, the compromises in a heavy displacement motorsailer are more stark - utterly unfussed by heavy weather or motoring or motor sailing to windward instead of slamming and bouncing in an AWB but equally hopeless at beating very close to the wind is just one example. But then it's not just gentlemen who don't go to windward, 99% of families hate it as well.
 
There's another point to this. With the increasing power of "auxiliary" engines, you can quite easily argue that most cruising yachts are now "motorsailers". Gladys has an "afterthought" wheelhouse on a nice looking 70's-80's hull, and can sail like a witch, but she looks more motorsailer...
 
The Olle Enderlein HR Rasmus is a fantastic motorsailer. With new(ish) sails can hold her own against most other boats. She is old (1970's) but dam good value even today.
 
Gladys said:
There's another point to this. With the increasing power of "auxiliary" engines, you can quite easily argue that most cruising yachts are now "motorsailers". Gladys has an "afterthought" wheelhouse on a nice looking 70's-80's hull, and can sail like a witch, but she looks more motorsailer...
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The Colvic Victor is a great sailer.

I think you're point is well made about modern boats, we sail, we motor and we motorsail and from the passages we make I rarely see people sailing in the same direction when we're forced to motor or motorsail - modern engines are big and powerful enough to get any boat there at least as fast as they could sail and that makes us all use it more than they did in the 1970's. Back then an engine was an auxiliary - to assist you. The term motorsailer was coined to describe a yacht that could either motor to its destination or sail there, the vast majority of sailing yachts wouldn't set out if they thought they'd have to motor. So as passage makers most AWB's are motorsailers, where they differ is that you can pop out into the bay for a bit of a sail, to be honest I'm not inclined to do that on our heavy displacement CW :) give us a 50 mile passage along the coast and a good wind and boy is she fun to sail though, responsive and tweakable and rewards using the right range of sails.
 
BurnitBlue said:
The Olle Enderlein HR Rasmus is a fantastic motorsailer. With new(ish) sails can hold her own against most other boats. She is old (1970's) but dam good value even today.
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I'll second that--- was just talking about daily runs today with a friend.
I crossed Biscay singlehanded from Milford Haven to A Coruna (550nm) in 5 days and 4 hours' About half of that was hard on the wind, then 1 day almost becalmed, then wind abaft the beam (which she loves) the rest of the way.
Should say she is a NAB 35, same boat, but completed by Freeman.
 
Ludd said:
I'll second that--- was just talking about daily runs today with a friend.
I crossed Biscay singlehanded from Milford Haven to A Coruna (550nm) in 5 days and 4 hours' About half of that was hard on the wind, then 1 day almost becalmed, then wind abaft the beam (which she loves) the rest of the way.
Should say she is a NAB 35, same boat, but completed by Freeman.
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I also had a NAB 35. Sailed her everywhere. This is called the Rasmus export model in Sweden to account for the superior fit out. Double bow roller, Windlass, Chain pipe to chain locker etc, I sold mine to a Swedish couple who circumnavigated her. He mentioned that he buddy boated occasionally with three other Nab/Rasmus and heard of one more but never met them. That made five NAB/Rasmus circumnavigating at approx. same time. Brilliant boats.
 
It's a completely different animal to a Fisher/Colvic Watson/Nauticat type heavy displacement. It has half the internal volume of a CW35 and weighs half an equivalent Fisher or CW. It's a very capable boat and if I didn't want a wheelhouse or as much space as we have then I'd have been really interested. I'm not surprised they circumnavigated so many, it's a superb boat for that sort of thing.
 
polhoff said:
Hello.

I'm wondering about comparative sailing performance of motor sailers. I read that LM seems to perform quite well. What about Spey and Colvic Watson?

I guess there are several reasons why motorsailers sail less well : increased displacement partly because of heavier engines, higher profile out of the water so more likely to drift, and maybe smaller sail area (I don't know). What's the main factor ?

I'm not really bothered about performance, but I would like to be able to sail up wind to some extent. What is the no-go angle for motor sailers?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

If you want speed then don't buy a motor Sailer !

As already said there are motor sailers and motor sailers, the Spey class (also designed by G L Watson) are absolutely solid and built like tanks and all wood construction BUT sail remarkably well for a heavy

displacement boat (up to 20 tons).

Colvic Watsons have a mind of there own, most do not like to tack under 2/3 knots but the smaller ones will sail close to the wind, I easily sail at 35 degrees off the nose but sail set up also plays a part.

Where most motor sailers score is safety as most have deep cockpits and many times I see yachts running for shelter even in a force 5 when I just plod along and don't reef usually until a force 6,
hull design also plays a major part in the sea keeping manners as does the long keels.

Everyone to there own but unfortunately we do not live in the Mediterranean or tropical waters and for UK waters give me a motor sailer every time :)

Mike
 
Remember that VMG is important with long keeled boats, they may sail close to the wind but unless you have a significant speed through the water (ignoring tide) then your leeway and consequent VMG will be shocking. I find that a five degree payoff in angle has a surprising effect on VMG and for this you need a good log - not just a GPS which tells you nothing about the most important speed which is through the water. Caer Uffa is right that the little CW's are more close winded, their sail area/ballast ratio is more favourable and a sloop rigged design will always beat a ketch to windward ;)
 
Arcady said:
Some of the more modern designs (and medium displacement) motor sailers can be very effective. For the last decade we've sailed a Cabo Rico NE400 and it points as well as most cruising yachts and can perform exceptionally well off the wind. A wide beam and long flat aft sections mean that reaching at 9 kts plus is a regular occurrence. That, on a 37' LOA/34' LWL hull would be considered very reasonable in most cruisers eyes.
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Reaching at over 9 knots through the water?? I find that hard to believe, unless that is just a peak speed down a wave.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Seems unlikely with a LWL less than 28 feet!
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Surfing up the Moray Firth in F9 and HUGE breaking waves, flying just a spitfire jib, my son and I saw 13.8 kt (SOG!) while falling down a wave. We did 60nm Cullen Harbour to the Cromarty approach buoy in 6 hours!
Then had to wait 4 hours tio enter the canal because I'd done my sums on 5kts!
28FT 6INS LWL.
 
I see your 13.8 and raise you, a sustained run at 15.5 knots for two hours SOG in a F4 in a Colvic Watson 35. Tide and waves are a wonderful thing.
 
We have an LM 30. In light winds in and around the Solent we often have to motor sail to get to our destination before the tide turns. If we are not in a hurry we raise the Cruising chute and can keep up with a Moody 31. In 10 to 15 knots of wind we easily keep up with the Moody and as the wind increases, the Moody will reef before we have to. Our engine is only 24hp so not that heavy but in cruising form , i.e. full water and diesel tanks (both 200 l ) plus dinghy, two folding kayaks and food she weighs about 6 1/4 tons. Always feels stable and in poor weather, the wheelhouse is a delight. If you are anywhere near Hythe, come and have a look at her.
 
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