COLREGS

[fred11]

I wonder if anyone can help, I was recently run down by a charter boat in what was to me a clear port and starboard incident, however the skipper and crew of the 37ft sunfast have stated that they were not sailing but were sitting head to wind making no way at all when we collided, this seems a bizarre claim to me as it was blowing 20 knots and I would have assumed it impossible to remain so as the bows would be sure to be blown off one way or another.

Also the Colregs appear silent on this point, does anyone know what rights you have in such a weird situation.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tcm]

If it's sunsail boat you'll need a marine lawyer/solicitor and soonish imho. Provided sunsail get their boat back, the skipper seems to have about as much responsibiltiy as the renter of a rowing boat on a park lake.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[StugeronSteve]

To sit head to wind, without some form of drogue, would surely involve a little input from the engine. As TCM says, take professional advice, and sharpish!

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[Brian_B]

Fred


I think you will find you are both at fault as Col Regs state you should do all you can to avoid a collision.
Starboard v Port is just 'rules of the road' to help prevent people bumping into each other.
It does not give people on starboard tack the right to go and bash into other's boats, except when racing.

Brian

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[fred11]

Brian

I am fully aware of this, more's to the point I was in a 21footer and had no interest in hitting him!!!! he nearly sank us, trouble is that to have avoided it would have meen making a course change that would have left us in a collision situation, then I would have def been in the wrong

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jamesjermain]

Questions:

Where was the point of contact between the rwo boats?
Why were you so close to the boat in the first place?
Did you call for water or make it clear you were the right of way yacht?
Had the other boat recently tacked?
Can you be sure the other boat was under way and making way with the sails drawing on the port tack?

I ask these questions because these and more are what the lawyers might ask. It will not be enough just to assert that you were close hauled (if your were) on starboard when the other boat appeared out of nowhere and ran into you. You will have to establish that you saw the other boat in good time and, when/if a risk of collision occured, you took all reasonable precautions to avoid one.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[snowleopard]

i think the key to this is were there any witnesses? without them it's merely a case of your word against his and he can and probably will lie his head off and there will be nothing you can do about it. it happens all the time on the roads.

if there's an insurance claim involved, get your insurers involved immediately.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[fred11]

James

Thanks for your reply, I know his sails were drawing on Port but he and several witnesses (crew and friends of his on another boat) have stated that he finished a race, dropped his sails and was sitting stationary with his main up in 20 knots. I and my crew can dispute this, does it come down to who has the most witnesses?

I was crossing a fleet and took all the avoiding action I could but there was a boat below him, clear astern of me which prevented me from getting around the back of him or tacking without causing a collision with the chap clear astern.

What I'm kind of relying on is that even if a hundred people state that you can sit in a 37ft light displacement boat head to wind in 20 knots with no way on, that doesn't make it possible. If this was going in front of a protest commitee it would be done and dusted in ten minutes!

Also some of the witness statements are amazing, one chap stated that as I could clearly see they were sunsail boats I should have tacked away as this meant I had no right of way ............. he's got a point but I don't think they've got round to writing a s@@@@l Colreg yet!!

Fred

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[waterboy]

Best advise I can give is to avoid waters and times where in the UK, Sunsail boats operate. Especially avoid the Round the Island race as there always are hordes of them. I am boycotting this race until the authorities deny entry to Sunsail boats and the inexperienced crews that all-too-often charter them. Overseas they tend to be a different kettle of fish as the crews have time to familiarise themselves with the boats. But here in the UK, the boats are day/weekend charters mainly and are unleashed on the rest of us water users with the inevitable little or no time for the crews to learn about the boats and their handling characteristics.
From the business perspective, these posts say that the UK operation must do huge damage to the company image and all their otherwise fine overseas operations.

<hr width=100% size=1>I never make the same mistake twice. I always make new ones.

 

[LadyInBed]

Have you filed one of the 'new' MCA reports yet?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Cornishman]

The other vessel was clearly "under way" i.e. not at anchor, not made fast to the shore nor aground. I think that Rule 12 (a) first line might give the clue here when it says "When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, ...." and it might be that the other skipper will claim to be making no way, and therefore was not approaching anybody.
I always taught to heave to on starboard tack because you will be stand on vessel in most circumstances and other sailing vessels as well as power drivens should keep clear. Heaving to on port tack is stupid - but then it was a sunsail boat I gather.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Metabarca]

Surely even if he were unmoving in the water, he would still be under way, even though not making way. AFter all, he was clearly not becalmed! And therefore subject to Colregs. It sounds like rather dodgy seamanship if he decides to stop for a snooze (figuratively) and re-arrangement of his dress in the middle of a busy waterway.

<hr width=100% size=1>Adriatic links here: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.comoy.com/saillinks.html>http://www.comoy.com/saillinks.html</A>

 

[Alastairdent]

Umm, 'scuse my ignorance, but didn't he drop all sails apart from his main, and don't you need to have the foresail and main up to heave to?

I thought that heaving to involved having main held to one side, foresail to other, and tiller tied either to centre or an angle that caused boat to constantly head up into the wind.

If he just had his main up, then he was sailing, no?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Cornishman]

Yep, what you have described used to be called the #2 heave to. The #1 is lying head to wind with all sheets loose and sails flapping. It doesn't matter if the foresail is set or not. #1 is a temporary measure whereas #2 is for longer periods such as tea break etc.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[temptress]

Fred,

At what point did you see the sunsail boat. Ihe IRPCS say you have a responsability to keep clear also. This will not be an easy thing to sort out and you may well need legal advice.

I have sailed in many parts of the world, delivered, raced and crewed countless boats on lakes, seas, rivers and oceans and I have had exactly 2 collisions in 25 years of sailing. BOTH of these were in the Solent and both involved SUNSAIL boats. One when I was ties to a pontoon in COWES. On both these occasions the SUNSAIl Skippers calimed they had done nothing wrong and my insurance company had to fight it out with them.

I now avoid as all costs any Sunsail activity in the Solent and will not use any Marina that has a Sunsail fleet booked into it.


<hr width=100% size=1>Temptress of Down
Southsea Marina
Hants

http://hometown.aol.com/temptressofdown

 

[plombier]

Fred, if this incident happened in The Solent between Cowes & Pompy suggest you file an Incident Report with QHM Portsmouth here: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qhmportsmouth.com/dispatch.php?action=AddIncidentForm>http://www.qhmportsmouth.com/dispatch.php?action=AddIncidentForm</A>

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Birdseye]

I think you might have some problem here. Reasons as follows.

Unless he was moored / anchored, he is underway (rule3) even if he is still in the water. You are on starboard tack but you can only tell which tack he is on from the position of his boom(rule12). If he is on port tack (boom to stbd) you have right of way but see below. If his boom indicates he was on the stbd tack too, then it would depend on which of you was the windward boat. If him, OK. If you, hard luck. But if he temprarily was dead in the water with the boom amidships and sails flapping then he wasnt on either tack and was incapable of taking avoiding action. Arguably, he was not under command

If he is incapable of taking avoiding action, or is clearly not doing so, then you have to do so (rule 17). So any court would look at what action you could have taken from doing a 180 to luffing up to tacking to going onto a reach etc. Difficult to conceive of a situation where there is nothing you can do to avoid him bearing in mind, its required that you act early.

I suspect that liability would end up being shared,. Insurance companies have long learned not to go into expensive battle with each other unless their position is pretty strong. Only the lawyers win otherwise.

Anyway, we've all cogitated, pontificated etc. Let us know how it works out.

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[Marsupial]

Birdseye

I would tend to agree, we have a set of regs that are not really worth a light when it comes to "the crunch". Regardless of the circumstances, when two pleasure craft meet the rules are clear, both craft should have done something to avoid a collision. I cannot see a credible defence from a pleaseure boater relying on the "finer points" of the regs, insurers will I am sure tend to go knock for knock. The only exception to this is if you are hit by a boat you did not see and you could not have seen - as long as it hits your port side.

I over heard a very interesting "training class" in a pub at cowes, the dialogue went something like this, student, "how do I know who gives way", tutor, "thats easy, the other boat does, you shout water or starboard or racing, thats all you need to know."

My short experience the next day confirmed that this is indeed how they do it in the solent, enough said.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[hlb]

Beats me how any two boats. One stopped or nearly and the other going little faster than walking pace, can crash!!

<hr width=100% size=1> No one can force me to come here. I'm a volunteer!!.

Haydn

 

[LadyInBed]

I still can't understand why you would want to get anywhere near a close quarter’s situation with a much larger boat.
(The much larger is irrelevant, but does add to the quandary)


<hr width=100% size=1>