Colregs question (serious this time, but not important)

shmoo

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The sensible shmoo is off marking exams, which allows me to set my mind wandering. The situation below occurs from time to time in our marina. Reversing out is my solution to not being able to get the bow through the wind at low speed in confined space. I do have to reverse quite fast however, to keep control.

Which is the give way vessel? They are both going backwards. Does port and starboard switch over? ie is it relative to the motion of the vessel, or is it fixed?

colregReverse.JPG
 

TiggerToo

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The boat already out is restricted should wait for them to have passed by. I think this makes sense anyway.
 

fireball

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IMO, and nothing to do with the colregs - the vessel just leaving her berth should hold on until the otherone is clear ...
In the event of the situation arising anyway then I would say that the first vessel should aim to keep clear.
 

dom

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This looks tricky but is in fact dead easy.

1. Both vessels must assess whether a collision risk exists and if it does act in accordance with good seamanship.

2. This obviously means the berthed vessel must wait on the dock. Ships have port control but marina based craft must be sensible.

3. In any case berthed vessel is entering a navigation channel and as such must give way. Furthermore the vessel in the channel is restricted in its ability to manouver.

Old buffers often say something like "We all ought to focus more on our own obligations rather than wishing that other vessels would respect our non-existent rights." - too true
 

fireball

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Depends where abouts in the Lane they are .... and how quickly the ice cream is going to melt before I get it back in a Freezer!
 
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I vote for Dom's number 3:

[ QUOTE ]

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.



[/ QUOTE ]

I assume crossing means any thing other than head on or overtaking.

The rule I think is missing is:
A give way vessel should not alter its course/speed/situation so as to cause it to become the stand on vessel.

Some examples:

Raising a black cylinder in close proximity to another vessel.

Dropping your nets while being a give way vessel.

Turning off a yachts aux engine while becalmed in front of a ferry!
 

Cruiser2B

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The vessel in the channel is NOT "restricted in its ability to manouevre" - colregs are very specific as to what constitutes RAM. Rule 9(d) (narrow channels) may apply, but the overriding rule would be Rule 2 (the common sense rule) - as others have stated. Fyi, in Canada and the US, you're required to sound a prolonged blast prior to departing your berth - it doesn't confer upon you any special priority, but does announce your intentions, so that rule 2 can be applied.
 

dom

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There must be no need for an alarm in one of your marinas! Perhaps if vessels were given different notes on their hooter they could play a tune in the morning rush?

On a more serious note I do not, however, agree with you for two reasons.

Generally Rule 2 - Responsibility of the COLLREGS: Reeds interpretation:

"This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a defence."

Specifically - I don't agree with your assessment that the vessel is not "restricted in its ability to maneuver" Specific circumstances are set out in the collregs but rule is not limited to these.
 

Lakesailor

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Re: Colregs Rubbish

Once again the situation is clear cut for the vessels in close proximity and the fact that a discussion lasting nearly 10 hours hasn't come close to an outcome yet means that both vessels may be deeply embedded in one another.

ColRegs seem to be about apportioning blame after the fact.
 

dom

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Re: Colregs Rubbish

Good point. I think I might give these collreg questions a wide berth from now on! But if I am the stand on ............ jeez that was going to be a bad joke. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 

Cruiser2B

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I don't see two reasons - the interpretation of Rule 2 you provided, falls in-line with what I said. The scenario given is hardly a "special situation" - I submit it's a regular occurrence that is obviously in keeping with the customary practices of good seamanship. I don't think the notwithstanding clause of Rule 2 is meant to be used for departures from definitions. RAM is specifically applicable to the nature of the vessel's work - backing up is not work.

Few recreational boaters observe the long blast rule - most probably don't know there are rules, let alone that one. A lot of harbours have local rules that obviate or restrict the rule anyway.
 

Superstrath

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This isn't a colregs question. It's a common courtesy issue.
As for RAM, that's not for the observer to decide, the RAM vessel needs to signal that is so restricted, before any other vessel can afford it RAM status.

If there are local bye-laws, fair enough. But in most marinas, there won't be. So just be polite and sensible. It's the way of the sea.

I despair sometimes at the "Colregs questions" and more so, sometimes, the answers, on here. Harumph.
 

mel80

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[ QUOTE ]
Does port and starboard switch over? ie is it relative to the motion of the vessel, or is it fixed?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really interesting question. I don't know the answer, but I have noticed that some of the calmac ferries (ones that go back and forward accross a short channel) have two sets of nav lights, one for going in one direction, one for going in the other). I guess that they must consider port and starboard to be relative.
 

shmoo

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[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
Does port and starboard switch over? ie is it relative to the motion of the vessel, or is it fixed?



That's a really interesting question.


[/ QUOTE ]
Although the senario I constructed is real, in that I do reverse fast down the alley in some winds, hoping no-one will pull out, it did not really bring out the point I was interested in, which is does port and starboard switch over for reversing boats. I would have been better posing it in open water.
 

KenMcCulloch

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
Does port and starboard switch over? ie is it relative to the motion of the vessel, or is it fixed?



That's a really interesting question.


[/ QUOTE ]
Although the senario I constructed is real, in that I do reverse fast down the alley in some winds, hoping no-one will pull out, it did not really bring out the point I was interested in, which is does port and starboard switch over for reversing boats. I would have been better posing it in open water.

[/ QUOTE ]
The best way to answer that question is to imagine it's a dark night. Starboard is the side with the green light, red port. It's often difficult to interpret another vessel's movement at night so in simple terms the vessel reversing down the channel is the give way vessel. While she may or may not be restricted in ablilty to manoeuvre she is definitley in a narrow channel and reversing out of one's berth into her path is not wise or courteous.
 

TheBoatman

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Simple
Do what the RoRo ferries and tugs at Dunkirk did (or still do - not sure).

Reverse the nav lights ~ all becomes clear, just because it's going backwards really doesn't make that much difference.

Peter.
 

Cruiser2B

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Your stbd side is still your stbd side whether you're going fwd or backwards - if the other vessel is on your stbd, you give way, whether you're going backwards, he's going backwards, or you both are. If your engine is somehow stuck in reverse, and the only way for you to make it home is to go backwards many miles, the onus is on you to rig emergency nav lights in the correct configuration. That's why the reversing ferries have two set of nav-lights. In the daytime, you had best be prepared to give way as you, no doubt, would be confusing to other mariners.
 

gandy

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[ QUOTE ]
Fyi, in Canada and the US, you're required to sound a prolonged blast prior to departing your berth ...

[/ QUOTE ] Is that a local rule, ie set out in US and Canadian law, or your interpretation of the rules in the IRPCS? I don't see it spelled out in the Rules, but I can see the analogy the long blast at a bend in a channel.

Equally you could say they should sound three short before reversing out of the berth - even though they're not underway until they slip their last line. I've certainly heard that in crowded waters.
 
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