Colour blind & RYA/MCA

[Dort]

Looking for commercial endorsements and/or the more advanced amateur tickets (Coastal to Ocean).

I have a red & green vision deficiency, while I am not completely colour blind. And while sometimes it takes me a while to recognise the colour of a distant buoy or a light, I do fare quite well while navigating. Due to many factors, sometimes seeing it first despite everything, and sometimes just knowing what should be where, I often know what's going on before better-sighted mates do.

Does anyone have experience if RYA/MCA are willing to issue restricted tickets for the 'colour blind' like me, or perhaps even equate practical abilities over the medical exam?

This is embarrassing, never been in trouble (quite the opposite) in practice, .. until reading up what they want.

Dort

 

[andygc]

There are no colour vision testing requirements for the RYA exams, but if you fail to identify nav lights at night I suppose you would fail.

The formal test is required as part of the medical assessment for the commercial endorsement.Go to the MCA web site and search on "colour vision". You will find various documents. The issue for you is fitness for lookout duties. If you can pass the Holmes Wright B lantern test you would be "fit" and therefore should be able to meet the standard required for a commercial endorsement. I don't know the mechanism for getting the test and the waiver from the MCA, but if you read any relevant documents you should be able to find out.

Why be embarrassed? About 8% of white, male, Europeans and Americans have a significant red/green deficit.

 

[snowleopard]

When I took the old Board of Trade yachtmaster the exam involved a sight test using coloured lamps in a dark room. Some colour blind people managed to get through because when they used oil lamps the colours showed up as different intensities. I recall one experienced mariner who was completely stuffed when they changed to electric lights.

These days there is no sight test for exams up to Yachtmaster though there is a colour blindness test in the medical required for the commercial endorsement.

I presume you know about the red & green colour filters you can use to distinguish red and green lights. I can't imagine an examiner would fail you if you used a set of these and were able to get the correct readings with them.

For the benefit of anyone who is red/green colour blind and doesn't know about these, you get a pair of red and green filters. When you look at a red light through a green filter you can't see it, likewise a green light can't be seen through a red fillter. You use them by moving the filter back and forth across the light in question. If the light is white or the same colour it shows all the time. When the light is the opposite colour it will wink out as the filter goes in front of it.

A friend with this condition described red and green as 'a dirty shade of yellow'. I imagine it is possible to distinguish between white and yellow lights.

 

[elton]

In most cases of red/green defficiency, the red/green receptors are tightly concentrated in the centre of the retina rather than being more widely distributed as is the norm. As you may know, many red/green 'defficients' can often discern colour quite accurately by staring at the object directly.

There are products such as ColorView which will enhance red/green differentiation. In fact all you need is a single pink-tinted contact (or spectacle) lens.

 

[flaming]

I have a friend who had the same issue.

He had a yachtmaster ticket, so I don't think that it restricts you from getting the ticket. But when he wanted to get commercially endorsed he couldn't.

I've never asked him the details, so I don't know the exact reason/test that stopped him, but I do know that he wanted to be commercial but couldn't on account of his eyesight.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

I think if an examiner realised you had difficulty distinguishing red/green, during your YM practical exam, that might give them pause. There is probably guidance for examiners on this matter.

I do know that when I had a medical for commercial endorsement the doctor conducting the examination was delighted to be able to test my colour vision and field (peripheral) vision, because those were about the only actual medical tests, all the rest was just questions about whether I had ever had a stroke or whatever.

 

[noelex]

In most cases of red/green defficiency, the red/green receptors are tightly concentrated in the centre of the retina rather than being more widely distributed as is the norm. As you may know, many red/green 'defficients' can often discern colour quite accurately by staring at the object directly.
.

An interesting theory, but I am afraid it bears no resemblance to reality.

 

[andygc]

There are products such as ColorView which will enhance red/green differentiation. In fact all you need is a single pink-tinted contact (or spectacle) lens.

I have spent a considerable amount of time on looking at colour vision requirements and standards for occupational purposes, mostly in aviation, but also in some other fields. This product is an excellent way of taking money from suckers.

It's really quite simple, you either have adequate red/green discrimination to distinguish between red, green and white lights at night, or you don't. For maritime purposes the Ishihara plates are a screening test - if you can read them you are for practical purposes red/green normal. If you can't read them you need a specific occupational test, which is the Holmes Wright lantern. That uses red and green filters that match the internationally standardised colours for navigation lights. If you can't pass the Holmes Wright lantern test you are unsafe to act as a lookout at night and you will not meet the standard for a commercial endorsement or any other professional watch-keeping certificate.

elton's theory is marvellous, but as noelex suggests, is nonsense. The cones (colour sensitive cells) are wholly concentrated in the centre of the retina. Red/green defects (of which there are two different types) arise (in simple terms) because of either a substantial or complete lack of red or green sensitive cones. Vision in the periphery is mediated by rods which provide monochrome vision.

The colour filters mentioned by snowleopard might work for some people some of the time, but are not a reliable means of discriminating between navigation lights. These filters work by relying on the substantial overlap in the spectral sensitivity of red and green cones. There is overlap with blue, but much less so. Even the best colour filters have some transmission loss. These will not stay in good optical condition for long.

The unreliability arises because the filter will reduce the brightness of the light which is being detected by a cone which is not particularly sensitive to that wavelength. So, for somebody who is red cone deficient, a green light through a green filter is dimmed by the filter, but detected by the green cone. A red light through a red filter is dimmed by the filter, but has to be detected by the overlap sensitivity of a green cone. It needs to be bright to be seen. The approaching red light on the starboard bow will be seen initially as a 'don't know' which disappears when seen through both red and green filters, remaining a 'don't know'. It eventually becomes a dim light seen through a red filter, shortly before the crash alteration of course to give way to a crossing vessel.

Of course, you also have to remember which is the red filter and which the green, because if you are colour deficient you probably can't tell by looking at them, especially in the dark. Strikes me that they are a great idea.

 

[Ariadne]

For MCA issued tickets you will need to pass the MCA lantern test - a series of red, green, white and yellow lights set at brightness of 6 miles (I think that was what it was when I did mine?).

**This used to have be taken without any reading or eyesight aids.**

Having a letter from your optician to state you had god vision and were not colour blind wasn't accepted, you had to pass their lantern test and it was only valid for 6 months from date of issue (but you didn't have to take it again until you upgraded your ticket. If you fail you used to be able to get referred to an MCA approved optician - at your own cost who could retest you and issue a lantern test certificate.

So get your eyes checked first before you spend.

My advice would be to contact the MCA first about your eyesight concerns and ask them how you should proceed.

 

[chwarae]

I am red green colour blind and have found the red/green lenses (spelling) to be a great help. My vision other than colur blindness is excellent and don't need to wear wet,steamed up glasses as a number of friends are forced to do on bad nights.I just look upon the lenses as some one with poor eyesight would look upon their spectacles.
I also realise that white steaming lights are normally brighter than red and green lights and play a major part in identifying the course of a craft.
I am also surprised how many red/green colour blind sailors are around.

 

[chwarae]

I failed to mention that the plastic lenses are shaped differently to enable you to distinguish them by touch at night,thereby protecting your night vision.

 

[carise]

I have looked into getting commercial endorsement as someone who holds an advanced powerboat certificate and from time to time assists a friend in running a school.

I am red/green colour deficient, and have never had a problem in reality, but am unable to find a legal way to obtain a commercial endorsement, as the test for this is NOT a lantern test (which I can pass), but the good old Ishihara test (ie all those coloured dots and numbers etc)(which I can't pass!!). If you cannot pass Ishihara without coloured lenses then you cannot legally get a full commercial endorsement (although you might be able to get a restricted endorsement eg 'daylight hours only', on appeal).

Having said that, I know of a number of commercially endorsed sailors and motorboaters out there who are red green colour deficient and have very accomodating GPs who appear not to be familiar with this requirement !!

Have a look at section 5
https://afrmmcanet.mcga.gov.uk/formspublic/MSF4112.pdf

 

[bilbobaggins]

This is perhaps of far wider significance.

While teaching the RYA's Shorebased Courses - Lights and Shapes - I'd ask a group of 20-24 how many had a colour vision issue. Typically, 5-6 would put up their hands.

I'd also ask who had a diabetes diagnosis, had sleep anoeia, or who had a heart complaint. By that point, typically over half the group had self-identified.

Then I asked if any of them had ever been asked by a skipper if they had any 'medical issues' s/he ought to be aware of before going offshore.

Not once..... not even on sea-school boats.

And how many of those using Commercially-Endorsed RYA qualifications as Cruising ( or other ) Instructors tell their charges of any constraints they may have?

 

[carise]

Good points, well made sir!

If you look at the regulations etc (Link on my previous post) and compare these to some of the less than healthy looking commercially endorsed types out there, it does really raise the question of how robustly the rules are enforced after someone gets their ticket stamped as endorsed!!?

This is perhaps of far wider significance.

While teaching the RYA's Shorebased Courses - Lights and Shapes - I'd ask a group of 20-24 how many had a colour vision issue. Typically, 5-6 would put up their hands.

I'd also ask who had a diabetes diagnosis, had sleep anoeia, or who had a heart complaint. By that point, typically over half the group had self-identified.

Then I asked if any of them had ever been asked by a skipper if they had any 'medical issues' s/he ought to be aware of before going offshore.

Not once..... not even on sea-school boats.

And how many of those using Commercially-Endorsed RYA qualifications as Cruising ( or other ) Instructors tell their charges of any constraints they may have?

 

[Elessar]

I am red/green colour deficient, and have never had a problem in reality, but am unable to find a legal way to obtain a commercial endorsement, as the test for this is NOT a lantern test (which I can pass), but the good old Ishihara test (ie all those coloured dots and numbers etc)(which I can't pass!!). If you cannot pass Ishihara without coloured lenses then you cannot legally get a full commercial endorsement (although you might be able to get a restricted endorsement eg 'daylight hours only', on appeal).

I think the DDA will protect you here. Certainly an employer can't state "normal colour vision required" he must state what he need you to do with that vision and make "reasonable" adjustments to allow you to perform the role with your disability.
In a previous role after years of demanding "normal colour vision" I took on a colour blind person, part of whose role (a small part) was to check power cables, coloured red and green, were the correct way round. My "reasonable adjustment" was simply to put a process in where he and only he got someone to double check. If it were a more significant part of his role a filter would have been a "reasonable adjustment".
Using red green filters would be reasonable in my view for sailing too. Now a commercial endorsement is not the same as being employed, but I think it has the same protection. People think the DDA is all about ramps and enough accessible parking spaces outside tescos to cope if the paralympics rolls into town unannounced, but it is actually far better and more sensible than that!

 

[andygc]

The DDA is based on somebody having a substantial impairment of activities of day to day living which must affect one of the following:

mobility:
manual dexterity;
physical co-ordination;
continence;
ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects;
speech, hearing or eyesight;
memory or ability to concentrate, learn or understand; or
perception of the risk of physical danger.

The statutory guidance on the interpretation of the Act states:

"It would not be reasonable to regard as having a substantial adverse effect ...
inability to distinguish between red and green."

An employer can state "normal colour vision required" and is not obliged to make any adjustment for somebody who has a colour vision deficit.

Your decision to take somebody on was an example of good employment practice, but was not an adjustment for disability since the person concerned was not "disabled" within the meaning of the Act. As far as identifying coloured cables is concerned filters are most definitely not the answer.

The DDA does not override other statutes. For example, the DVLA discriminates directly against diabetics, epileptics, people with sleep apnoea, people with significant mental illness and people with monocular vision, all of whom are likely to be eligible for the Act's protection. The MCA has statutory authority to set medical standards for seafarers and does so. Again, it discriminates directly. Such discrimination is lawful.

 

[Elessar]

"It would not be reasonable to regard as having a substantial adverse effect ...
inability to distinguish between red and green."

An employer can state "normal colour vision required" and is not obliged to make any adjustment for somebody who has a colour vision deficit.

Your decision to take somebody on was an example of good employment practice, but was not an adjustment for disability since the person concerned was not "disabled" within the meaning of the Act.

Interesting. My HR department was risk averse but it does look like I was poorly advised.

 

[Dort]

Thanks for all comments

Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate it.

I know I'll fail Ishihara anyway (even if Colorview etc glasses work, they are banned). I know on the medical form, they explicitly mention Ishihara. I'm going to find a place to do the lantern test anyway, but is even passing it going to help me?

And during the practical test, do RYA/MCA examiners generally emphasize perfection to specific requirements, or more generally managing with the situation?

In other words. I'd be confident if they let me have it my own way and time to produce safe results and exact FIXes, or react to situations, but less so if they just were bombing me with 'what's that light over there 8 miles away'. That's because I have at least limited night sailing training and experience. Thus I already know I'm not the sharpest spotter for a distant sector light, but still eventually can make it out before it becomes important. Sometimes (not often) even faster than those with perfect colour vision, probably either due to being more attentive or just generally being more aware than the rest of where I am and what I need to look for. (Not to brag / dismiss the issue, just to define my case).

Dort

 

[andygc]

Dort

I wrote to the MCA at the end of last week to ask for clarification on their policy. They have a document on their web site which says that the seafarer's vision test is Ishihara, but another document that describes the use of the lantern test to permit seafarers with a degree of red/green impairment to be assessed fit for lookout duties (which is the issue at point here). I'm interested in the answer from a professional perspective. I'll post the answer here when I get it.

Andy

 

[Dort]

Dort

I wrote to the MCA at the end of last week to ask for clarification on their policy. They have a document on their web site which says that the seafarer's vision test is Ishihara, but another document that describes the use of the lantern test to permit seafarers with a degree of red/green impairment to be assessed fit for lookout duties (which is the issue at point here). I'm interested in the answer from a professional perspective. I'll post the answer here when I get it.

Andy

Andy, I'd really be grateful for that!

Meanwhile I'm already searching for a place with one of those lantern tests, to see how hard they are in reality. Like seeing the traffic lights a mile afar, or trying to see through a needle hole 6 feet away. Anybody with experiences to describe?

Dort