Classic Yacht Stove - Obsolete?

Roach1948

Roach1948

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www.dallimoredesigns.nl
I have migrated from the classic forum.

I was very interested in the recent thread regarding gas. I am restoring a 1940's daysailor, and it came with a very nice original enamelled 1930's gas stove with bakelite knobs (that matches the original porcelain sink). I am very fond of it and even had it newly re-enamelled. The thing is that it does NOT have a flame failure device - but still would like to keep it as it does fits in with the restoration.

I was under the impression that BSS directives allow such a set up so long as cooking is supervised. As she is only a daysailor/weekender, and does not have gimbals, cooking will be done at anchor and cooker always be supervised anyway incase a pan slides off.

All other parts of the installation have been upgraded to be BSS compliant I think. With gas locker venting over the side etc etc. As I see it the flame failure device is the only Achilles heel.
 
You have to ask yourself how many boats caravans and campers are out there with no flame failure device.
I am aure that over time they will be scrapped or replaced with new equipment, but in the meanwhile, the craft was designed built and used for the last umpteen years, and retrospective legislation does not actually exist.
Prudence would suggest that you observe as much of the rules (with respect to any piece of equipment used) as you can, and asess the risk for the rest.
I installed a used Flavel Vanessa in my 22 footer which did not have a flame failure device, but was a significantly better and safer design than what was there before. I was happy to use that cooker with the precautions that were necessary.
The only one who may say anything is the insurance company if a full survey is carried out for thier purpose, but that is by no means certain.
A decent gas alarm, hidden away will be useful, and just keep a check on the apparent flame profile. After all, it may be carbon monoxide from inadequate ventilation that gets you!
The perfect world would see you change for a new fangled implement, but I for one would be happy to use your setup.
 
I would have thought that being you have gone to trouble of getting it re-enamelled, its got to be worth keeping, and it can't be that hard surely to fit a flame failure device if you are desperate for one.... you can buy a thermocouple for a tenner, and then you just need an electric valve...... but i'd side with Jim... unless your insurance company demand it, go with it, and just be careful.
 
I have experience of getting boats through the BSS examination.

Your stove *MUST* have FFD fitted.

Also, regarding the rest of the gas installation, you will need a test point.

The piping from the gas cylinder must be copper, with compression fittings (using copper olives). A short length of flexible (kite marked) gas pipe is allowed from the cylinder to the copper (less than 1m), and from the appliance to the copper (less than 1m). The appliance must be fastened down. The connection between the flexible hose and rigid pipe must be made using hosetails or nozzles. The clips on this must be hi-ten (no b&q jubilee clips).

The cylinder must be restrained in the locker. There must be some method of turning off the gas at the cylinder - the valve on propane cylinders will do, if butane, you have to fit a gas valve as close to the cylinder as is practicable.
 
Cookers do NOT need to have flame failure devices in order to pass the BSS.

Obviously, they recommend you use one with the flame failure fitted, but it isnt a requirement

The way the BSS quides are worded is sh!te in my opinion, they are not clear enough, which is why people alway are confused by what is required! It would be must better if they had bullet point requirements, not waffle wouldnt it?
 
It's going to be hard to retro fit FFD I think. The thing is enamelled cast iron and the burners are also cast iron and don't have tops like like modern ones. It will be hard to screw anything in anywere. The top burners and grill section completely lift off the enamelled frame for ease of cleaning. The jets being further back by the enamelled frame and next bakelite taps (hard to explain without pic - and I dont have any). It's a simple contraption but it works well and is very practicle for cleaning. It would be a shame to see it go as this is an authentic restoration (using designers original plans) and the porcelain sink and this cooker are one of the only few original pieces that remained onboard for over 60 years. I think that says a lot about the quality. It will be shame to see it go due to 2006 regulations - its a bit like putting a starter motor on a crank start car. Surely there must be some leeway in the reglations that allow for period examples?

Sorry - I did say I migrated from the classic forum! Aesthetics mean a LOT ....
 
I have just had a gas test done as required by my insurance company.
The engineer was very helpful and explained the regulations clearly. Apparently I had done more work than was strictly necessary. Cost £60 but money well spent, I reckon, even though I'm a registered skinflint.
Might be worth speaking to him.

www.mistralyachts.co.uk or phone 01621 743853
 
If your insurance company is OK with it then you needn't worry.

Personally, I would try to fit a FFD if it could be done without affecting the appearance but I can fully understand your wish to keep it all as authentic as possible.
 
Yes indeed.

At one point I was going to change sink, cooker the lot and fit a MODERN galley using plywood! When an artist mate heard my plans he persuaded me that not to change it. So now SOLID mahogany panelling to original plans - so you can see how I dont reall'y want something that looks out of place. Ohh and the stove works very well. Last Summer I hosted a BBQ for 6 with it!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Cookers do NOT need to have flame failure devices in order to pass the BSS.

Obviously, they recommend you use one with the flame failure fitted, but it isnt a requirement

The way the BSS quides are worded is sh!te in my opinion, they are not clear enough, which is why people alway are confused by what is required! It would be must better if they had bullet point requirements, not waffle wouldnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]


From the BSS version 2

"Burners on catalytic appliances, appliances with continuouslyburning
flames and pilot light burners shall be fitted with a
device that automatically shuts off the fuel supply if the burner
flame fails."

This means cookers.

If you want to persist in arguing, please phone the BSS office first.
 
That is surely a matter of interpretation. The wording implies to me that it means devices that would normally be left on for long periods unattended, such as heaters, or pilot lights for domestic ovens, etc., rather than a cooker that is going to be attended. If that's not what it means, then it is badly worded.
 
Devices that it doesn't apply to are such things as engine heating blowlamps and gas pokers for fires (specifically mentioned in the guide).

I've had recent BSS examinations, and discussed this with the tech office. Cookers must have FFD fitted.

There's no point arguing it with them because the wording is woolly, as not all the technical details are in the guide. The examiner gets to make the interpretation, not the boat owner.

Regardless of this, would you really want a cooker without ffd?

The best thing might be to talk to a local examiner, see if they can think of some creative way of meeting the regs.
 
Well I just got off the phone to BSS and they were very helpful. The following points were made:

1. I don't need to be BSS compliant as the Deben classified as an Inland waterway. They do recommend I comply to the specs nevertheless as it is often required by insurers.

2. As for "continuously burning flame" - interestingly this does not mean cookers. He explained that this was intended to mean pilot lights (apparently gas fridges are a real safety nightmare for them) and catalytic appliances.

3. Appliances fitted before some date I can't remember in 2003 don't apply. Although mine strictly speaking was re-installed after that date I could say it was "Restored in Situ".

4. All other aspects of the installation MUST comply though - which mine does (I think). He was particularly keen to ask about my gas locker and venting overboard.

So it looks like a I get away with it to the letter of the scheme which is good.
 
The text I quoted was specifically for appliances installed before 3rd Jan 2000 (not 2003).

I'm suprised that BSS Office said that the cooker doesn't need a FFD - all examiners that I've seen have checked this point.

I'm glad to hear that you don't have to comply with the BSS, some of the rules in it are nonsensical. I had to replace engine filters and fuel hose just because it didn't have the kite mark. Cost me quite a bit
 
Yes sorry about date - I did not make an exact note of it knowing my cooker was fitted decades before, but I appreciate the exact date will be useful to other other readers.
 
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